#16 Kiran Krishnan, Microbiologist/Microbiome Labs, Megaspore

Good morning it is that gut check project America. You’re here with your host,

Dr. Ken Brown, what’s going on that can land we got all kinds of stuff going on. This is kind of an exciting show because we did a remote location with a really, really cool guy, Kiran Krishnan, get on, Krishnan Get on. So we ended up taking all of our equipment down to IFM. That’s the functional medicine meeting and we filmed the podcast with him. And I think it’s fantastic. It really is some of the coolest microbiology and incredible explanations. So the second hour or it’s gonna be a second hour. It’s gonna be amazing. I think it’s so cool.

This is actually really cool. Because we can look into the future and say we know 100% that we are going to deliver in the second hour because he did an awesome job. There’s lots of eye opening anecdotes that I will I call them anecdotes they were they were just new and concept the way that he said them, but then you look back and like it just make sense. It just makes sense. He is the micro microbiologist behind megaspore. And it’s a spore based probiotic. We’re going to get into that whenever we have him on the show here. And

I think if if you have ever been interested in taking a probiotic, you absolutely have to listen to this because he has a lot of evidence about the industry of probiotics, how many people are making probiotics that are really not on the up and up and they don’t really know where their product is coming from. We covered that we covered why a soil based spore biotic is much better and then we went deep dive into the science of how it does so I really really liked that. That whole podcast that we did with him

too. If you are new to the gut check project. This is the gut check project with your host, Dr. Ken Brown we check our egos at the door because nothing is off the table. And you may already want to know I saw y’all post. We could win free electron teal and KBMD CBD. So let’s just get straight to it. Dr. Can what should they do? If they would like to win the signature protection package, the signature protection package, go to gut check project, sign up, subscribe, share, and do they have to take a picture of it to get the to get enrolled or how does that work? You may want to take a screenshot just so that if you happen to win win, we will draw a winner in the mid part of July actually at least five winners. If the if the numbers keep coming in on iTunes like they are now we may have more than five winners which would be great. But you can go to iTunes or YouTube search gut check project. Basically subscribe. Take a screenshot if you wish, but then go to gut check project. com Connect Let us know that you subscribe and then you’re entered. That’s all there is to it. Subscribe Come let us know get your project com search for get checked project on YouTube and or iTunes and tell a friend about it. Because the more we grow, the more we give away.

That’s all there is to. Absolutely. And if you aren’t joining us, let us know so that we can keep doing what y’all want to hear about

No, no doubt. So whenever you connect, you’ll see that you can you can actually suggest guests topics for the show. We’ve already been able to book some in advance with with some of those suggestions. So really looking forward to that. Today, you’ll get a glimpse of one of those suggestions that came from a friend of ours named Bridget a little over a year ago when she knew that we wanted to have a show. And this this delivers. If If you’ve ever really wondered, What is it about probiotics that even mean anything? And am I taking the right one I promise if you’re not taking one for megaspore or mega, mega sports microbiome labs may get that right sorry for stumbling there, then you’re probably not taking a reputable or a probiotic that can actually prove that it’s worth it.

So as we’re launching the KBMD box, we got a lot of feedback from people. They want to know what’s in the box. And one of the reasons why you’re going to have to really cool things, which is our Tron teal, and megaspore is because in this podcast, he explains how the polyphenols and I tried to actually augment the spore based biotic and you can improve your health and improve the diversity of your microbiome with that

it no doubt and on top of that, the biggest hang up that you had long ago is how do I even know that these probiotics that people are taking are getting to work where I need them to work if you’re, you’re ingesting them, and they’re encapsulated and they’re breaking open the small bowel that you might as well just cut a hole in your belly and just pour in a bunch of stuff that doesn’t make sense. He essentially addresses all of that and talks why the science behind spore based probiotics is the answer.

So I went on Melanie Avalon’s new show The Melanie Avalon show on Monday. And we talked exactly like this, that when you listen to guys like Ian Quigley who have been studying probiotics for 40 years, the thing that he says the best is we can they do amazing things in a petri dish. We just can’t get them to replicate that in the human body. Because it’s very, very complex. We get into big detail about how that actually happens. How many people
have we had come to the GI clinic who have said, I had gi distress or whatever that whatever symptom it was, it happened to be, but I had gi distress. And then I began to take a probiotic, and it went away for a little while. And then after name, the time interval, four weeks, six weeks, 12 weeks, whatever it is, suddenly, they returned to that feeling of those symptoms. And oftentimes what I hear is it it was worse. And so basically, it’s your the idea and if I’m applying what Karen said correctly, is that taking the wrong delivery system of production
is actually just dumping bacteria which doesn’t necessarily belong. So when I see these people with really bad bacterial overgrowth, and they start taking it they go man, I got way worse that gives me a hint of what’s going on. Sure, the cedar Sinai protocol with Dr. Pimentel is that they don’t let their patients take probiotics. Now, Karen has some great research showing that the spore based biotics can actually help with leaky gut and
intestinal permeability. And I think it’s funny because patients go, oh, I’ve tried probiotics before, but that’s a lot like when people say, oh, I’ve tried CBD before, right? And they’re like, I didn’t get any response. I’m like, well, CBD is a lot like the supplement industry. There’s a lot of products out there, which they do not
show in the manufacturing process is not on the up and up. So that’s how come we see so many people that take the kBm D CBD, and like wow, I really feel a huge difference. And it’s because we know exactly what’s it with a certificate of analysis. How many milligrams is actually in there. And we know we’re doing a whole series of videos about why your body needs CBD. Tell me about the dosing of CBD. So if any of you have any questions about that you have with CBD, send them over so that we can do videos and put them out there and try and educate my job
here is to educate everyone on the science of these different things always, you know, the gut check project, check your ego at the door and start relearning everything. And that’s what I had to do with CBD. That’s what I’m doing with probiotics, right? When we’re launching this box, this is part of it. So the first box that we’re launching, the ingredients that we put in there, the megaspore and the ultra until we’re going to work together and they’re they’re going to begin to heal your gut. Then I put in life extension, comprehensive digestive enzymes
so that you can make sure that you can absorb all your micronutrients. I want to protect your brain and we put in their organic turmeric from omega, and they have this really cool blend of putting an AMA which has been shown to help with insulin sensitive activity and ginger which has been shown to help with digestive issues. So those
four things right there and then we threw in something really cool something called trucy or USI. Now I recently I discovered this because my patients were telling me about it and member box they were saying that so many of
the other influencers were having really good success with it. So I started looking at the science micronized hydrogen, and as it turns out, micronized hydrogen nanoparticles of hydrogen can actually help at a cellular level decrease inflammation. So here we were protecting your gut. And then all these things added up. We’re going to
throw in a couple other really cool products. A lot of people take apple cider vinegar, so we went with Vermont village, organic flavored apple cider vinegar that actually tastes good. And then a special guest from or a special gift from me to everyone that signs up. In addition to that, we should say that anybody that signs up for the kBm the member box, we do not have CBD in it. Yet there’s a lot of regulatory stuff that’s going on but you will be given a discount, is that correct? They can hundred percent you sign up you’ll get access that nobody else gets on CBD with KBMD CBD being a certified COA

product already, so you know that it’s authentic. It’s already priced is the best value high quality CBD that’s available anyhow, simply you sign up for the KBMD box KBMD box dot com, you will then be able to get price access to KBMD CBD that’s not available on really anywhere on the web.

So absolutely. And so this is, you know, it’s still the old adage membership has its privileges. That’s what we’re trying to do with the kBm D community. When you get on there, you’re getting $250 worth of product sent to you that are going to get icy work and my patients that’s the key to this is that I see these things work and we’re adding a little bit more and it’s over $103 saving so you’re not going to be able to find these products cheaper. Anywhere, they come right to you. And then with the feedback we get, we’re going to continue to evolve, we’re going to get more products in, we’re going to be able to add more we’re going to get, I mean, it’s going to be really fun. In addition to being able to get discounts on CBD just add to it. So simply what what I believe can you’re saying is that this is an opportunity. If you take supplements whatsoever that you’re going to get supplements that work, you’re going to get them all for a price that is inaccessible. So essentially, like Costco for health care providers is suggestions, right? And then we don’t just talk about the science or the claims or on the label, weeks, we essentially just tell you all of the benefits that can be scientifically proven for this product that’s in there, what actually is happening for you as your benefit, correct, exactly. And then when you sign up, you get access to this big marketplace. So we’ve already had several people that built up in addition to what they’re already getting. They’re adding a few other things and and this is going to be a really fun exciting time as we launch this, it’s an opportunity to change the landscape of health. I want to see what happens with people, I would love to see people go back into the regular doctor and find out that these great things are happening like, Oh, my, my insulin sensitivity is improving, because we know that multiple products in there actually help with that, oh, and sleeping better, because we know that the magnesium in the trucy can help with that. We’re going to start doing that. And then as we get feedback from everybody, we’re going to learn, Hey, can you do something and some of my patients have already been asking about this, hey, I have a I take a supplement for my eyes. Is there any way that we can get on there and I’m like, we’re going to work and to get that product on this marketplace so that you can get it at a huge discount. So it’s going to be a really, really fun, exciting, hopefully life changing experience for anybody that signs up. This is essentially an environment where it is totally consumer driven. It’s done for the benefit of the consumer. And it’s essentially like walking through the store saying Does this work for me? Does this work for me and then turning back to a physician and saying, I would suggest this one. And actually, I don’t know so much about that one, and which is really cool. And that’s what a lot of people are looking for whenever they’re trying to shop. And then everybody that’s involved in this community. There’s a lot of other health care providers. We’ve got gynecologic experts. We’ve got functional medicine doctors, we got chiropractors, we have health nutritionists, and we’re all bouncing ideas off each other. So I can find out that’s how I found out about trucy actually, right? Like, no, you you have to try this. It’s awesome. And it’s incredible the value that we’re getting on that so this is going to be really neat. I just want to see this happen and of course hundred percent money back guarantee. Go to KVM D box comm Check it out.

Check it out. Well, to move forward. Dr. Brown. I didn’t want before we got down to the topics. I just wanted to ask you what’s going on with the oldest tennis player in your family. Yeah, so Lucas?

Lucas right now is with us. Coach and Haverford Pennsylvania playing in ITF, which is the International Tennis Federation. It’s the I guess it’s 18. And under Junior Pro circuit where international people can come from all over, it’s a grass court tournament. So these pictures are just beautiful. Is it some country club? You have to wear all white just like you’re going to Wimbledon? Right? Wimbledon has those same rules. So they treat it just like that. And he’s doing really well apparently this grass surface suits his game cuz he’s in the semi finals playing tomorrow. He’s got today off and then playing the semi finals tomorrow. So in the boy he’s going to be playing is a he’s from Thailand. Okay. And he he lives in Florida at at one of the one of the academies. Yeah. And so Lucas knows of him because these boys are starting to kind of go round. He’s a few years older, but so hopefully we’ll see what happens but I’m just proud that he got here all the way on grass.

Yeah, that picture that you showed looks like they’re playing on a big grass green. It is. Oh, hey, Yeah, I mean levels doesn’t look like the lie would be already could definitely put straight for the whole but yeah, that is that is wild. Hey, it was beautiful with the boys for me just it’s all about taking a break from basketball next week being the Fourth of July just for the listeners. We won’t have a live show next week because the fourth is on Thursday. And family and I are going to take a break and head up to Colorado for a couple days get out of the heat here in Texas, which actually hasn’t been that bad so far this year. But while we were getting ready for the show, something I thought was really funny. After we’ve been looking at or hearing so much about how people found meat replacements, have you seen this new commercial for for Arby’s that was on online? So we just looked this up, somebody texted Eric

said yeah, this is a check out the new Arby’s Arby’s unveils vegetables made from me. Were there They now have meat carrots to sort of fight back against the whole What? It’s the amazing what’s everybody doing now chef Patrick?

There’s beyond beyond meat and impossible burger.

Yeah, that’s it. So this is the fight back.

We have the meats, they basically took meat and shaped it as a carrot, carrot dust and then cook it.

It’s pretty, it’s pretty. It’s pretty interesting. It’s pretty awesome. But Rob wolf was the one who who shared that that was really fired. It’s funny.

So one of the what else is really funny this past weekend that so loaded was out of town and while she was out I decided to be a good hobby and I was going to get our car detailed out nice. And so I took it in and like did the whole just keep it for a few hours. They did the inside and out and you know the full on detailing and proud of myself. I go to pick it up, driving home. I don’t drive a car very often and I clipped a curve or a pothole or something. I just went whack and next thing I know I blew up big ol hole in that tire. Nice. Yeah, so awesome. Sony found out that her achra roadside assistance had run out and I had canceled that on our insurance because we have accurate roadside assistance. Why would I need that? Right? So I had neither. So I’m telling this thing to tire shop on it was on Saturday night, towed it, left it at the Discount Tire whatever was gonna go fix it the next day. Well, they’re closed on Sunday night so Lloyd arrived Sunday night And not only are not only can I not brag about me washing the car, or you know, detailing the car, it’s uh, yeah, I pretty much screwed it up. So it’s sitting there. We’ll have to go get it tomorrow.

Hey, man, it was the intention that matters. I mean, yeah,

yeah, exactly.

Well, what do you got dinner in the corner? I know that we’ve got you and I’ve kicked back and forth a bunch of really cool articles this last week, and I didn’t really know which direction you’re going to go today because there’s a lot there. But why don’t you go ahead and leave off with your favorite one so far.

Well, you know what’s really interesting, there’s been a lot of recent news there was Melanie Avalon, and I actually talked about this one, which I think everybody should at least take take a look at. And realize something there was two studies published in the British Medical Journal, okay? Where it looked at how when people take really kind of refined diets, that all cause mortality increases significantly. And then there was another study where they looked at were cardiovascular events goes up. So then they started looking at what it does to the microbiome. So just just for clarity for for refined diets, we’re talking we’re talking about things where people have refined sugars, refined carbohydrates, things that have been bleached, correct, like flour, etc. Right? Well, oh, there we go. Sorry about that. Um, so what they’re actually looking at is anything that’s that has that that’s in a packet that has to be stabilizers and Chef Patrick could probably expand on this but they were looking at that most of these things have emulsifiers in them. They have lots of sugar. And a very interesting concept, they usually decrease the amount of fiber content. And the reason for that is is that fiber keeps you full. This isn’t encourage you to keep popping the Cheetos or whatever. So, Chef Patrick, do you know what an emulsifier is when they’re dealing with processed foods?

Yeah, I mean, they’re, they’re a lot of them. But, you know, it’s a binding agent, modified foods, starches, things like that. Yeah, it’s they’re chemically. You know, it’s a natural substance chemically modified to be cheaper, and you need less of it. So they work really well as a thickener, something in a texture to, to breads or things like that, too.

So what they showed us these emulsifiers, so those three things, the emulsifier actually damages your good microbiome. And then the sugar feeds bacteria and allows them to grow more. The lack of fiber means that your microbiome does not use that as a prebiotic, so your diversity decreases. So you don’t have the benefit of having your microbiome help you. So not only do we now know that that definitely increases cardiovascular risk and all cause mortality. Now we’ve got molecular reasons of how it messes with your microbiome. So it’s kind of a fascinating thing, because they, what they showed is that when these bacteria get hurt by the emulsifier, they do not, they cannot break down the prebiotics, which then allows the bacteria to produce short chain fatty acids, which your body works and uses as fuel in in the colonic cells. So it becomes this very vicious cycle, that replacement

of fiber I would imagine would also increase the glycemic index then of those foods, making them also more dangerous, correct.

100%. And what they showed is by not having these short chain fatty acids floating around, Uh huh. inflammation in your body goes past it. So they showed in these animal models that cortisol and CRP go up that C reactive protein, yeah. And what that does, and this is you’re gonna love this. They showed and this is the first time I’ve seen this When your cortisol and CRP goes up, you actually block the inflammation blocks your response to leptin. ghrelin is the hormone that makes you hungry. leptin makes you feel full. So you open up a package of something, you start eating, and you start getting in the habit of doing that on a regular basis, you’re changing your microbiome, you are not decreasing in, you’re not allowing your own bacteria to help you decrease the inflammatory response of anything. mean short chain fatty acids go down, you will get hungrier, you eat more of it more of the bacteria that like that start putting out signals. And so a lot of times these are when people like man, why can’t I quit eating this junk food? There’s a cycle going on. And all of this, we’re now seeing on a cellular level, what’s actually happening, what a huge explanation. So if you if you’re experiencing already some inflammation that you can see and it doesn’t have to be anything Terrible. But if you have acne, then obviously feeding it more of a refined food diet would simply just be feeding into the inflammation process that you’re currently experiencing. Right? exact. So if you got a child at home, maybe this, even just these four minutes is worth watching on why you need to steer away from sugary cereals for for breakfast or why you need to not come straight home and turn straight to a bag of chips or something else like that. Because you’re going to not be you’re not going to feel full and the right way and you’re just going to keep consuming really bad calories. Yeah, you wake up and you take in and those cereals. That’s such a great example. We’ve talked about that before on the show where I grew up on fruity pebbles and stuff like that I cringe it’s cringe worthy, thinking about it now. And now we know that you’re not feeding your bacteria what it really needs, which polyphenols work really well to feed your bacteria. We know that fiber does that as well so that you can have a very diverse microbiome. The key is to have a diverse microbiome. They showed that the more people that eat this, they have a much more narrow spectrum. So you do not have the benefit of that microbiome. You blunt your leptin response. So you’re always kind of hungry, you never really feel full. And then let’s take it up one step. They didn’t get into this, but I’ve actually had some patients that were food chemists working for, I don’t know, I don’t remember Frito Lay or something like that. And they actually work on having a more likely it’s an emulsifier. Now that I think about it to slide more easily so that the food goes down quicker so that the Fritos go down quicker and all that stuff. So there’s a lot of science being put into it to try and get people to open up bags and just their engineering to make you dependent upon their crappy food. And it’s not going to benefit you in the long term. It’s so weird. It’s, I mean, it’s absolutely nuts. Like, at some point, we have to start getting involved and not letting companies do Destroy the general health. They have the money to take out the the money to make them beat carrots. Yeah. So you have these you have these companies out there doing that. And it’s an uphill battle. We’re, you know, the epidemic of childhood obesity. Everybody’s saying, Oh, it’s the activity. It’s is that well, yeah, that that has something to do with it. But what if we’re really messing ourselves up on a cellular level that we’re not even paying attention to?

It’s so hard at the grassroots level. If you’re not. I just like you I grew up on really sugary cereals. I mean, I’m sure if I could turn back the clock. I wouldn’t want to do that at all. So it’s like how do you move forward? How do you educate your kids and for the most part, I would say even though my both of my boys feel it’s incredibly boring for breakfast for them. We really I just don’t buy that. That kind of stuff. And ironically, since the boys that they’re out for the summer, they’ve been earning their own money. One of the ways they rewarded themselves they went bought a box crappy cereal. You know, it’s such a downer when I see it. I don’t want to be like, Oh, no, you can’t because you got to kind of let them make some choices still. But at the same time I look at them. I just don’t think they have any idea what they’re, I mean, they don’t, right. They don’t they don’t know what it’s doing. So really, and I think when you’re really young, you don’t feel the effects as much. The truth is, as much as they play sports, and that inflammation that they work up, it’s not helping them heal, they aren’t recovering. I mean, we talked about that, that the the original thing of breakfast being the most important part of the day, it was actually an ad campaign in 1940 when Grape Nuts came out, totally Yeah, the other day I went without my normal bacon and eggs. I felt great.

So you did intermittent fasting. Yeah, I did.

It was awesome. Yeah. And it was still wasn’t hungry until about three in the afternoon.

I got another really cool little tidbit that I want to talk about regarding bacteria and CBD when we come back.

Alright, wow, that was a quick half hour so like and share like and share gut check project on YouTube and iTunes. We will catch you on the backend. Let us hear from you a gut check project. com

All right, we’re back gut check project second half hour. This is episode number 16 only think we said that the last half hour Episode Number 16 Episode Number 16 can’t wait to get to 20 that’s when they say the magic happens. I don’t even know what that means, but I do know that our subscribers are growing so and certainly appreciate that if you’d like to win your very own signature package from dark brown mkbhd Health you can get your very own Arbitron to month supply as well as KB MD CBD simply by going to iTunes or YouTube or both. And subscribe and share and then go to get chick project calm and let us know that you did it. That’s all you have to do. Do all of those things. Dr. Brown does everything is you want to add?

Yeah, I just want to add that that’s the signature package. And the reason why we call it the signature package is because what my what I’m trying to do is bridge some gaps and bring traditional science into natural places. And right now, I think that what we’re lacking a lot of is just data and science on CBD. There’s so much confusion about it. The reason why it’s a signature package is because we know that the polyphenols and altran to actually decrease the enzyme that breaks down your own Endocannabinoid sign. And this is how they work together to increase so that’s what I was seeing in my practice. When people take the CBD and otra until they feel markedly better. There was a there’s so many things to get to like there’s a recent article where it was looking at how CBD actually is very effective against superbugs better than antibiotics. Science is pretty thick on that go to KBMD health.com sign up for KB MD box We’re going to continually update that site with a lot of science, new science and everything. But there’s another article that I found a little bit more interesting that I wanted to cover, hey, let’s get to that article. And just just for those who haven’t done it yet, because it grows every single day, kbd health.com, which is where you’ll find gut check, project, calm, etc, just simply sign up for the newsletter. Over the next three weeks, the transition is going to be huge. What, what Ken’s talking about is that from KB MD, we’re going to be able to put the science we’re actually the science hasn’t been explained behind, polyphenols, CBD diet, it’s for you, it’s for free. But it’s for you to be more educated, spend your money more wisely, stay more healthy. That’s really what this whole thing is about. And we have the ability to find a lot of articles. A lot of my colleagues are like, well, there’s no science on this. I’m like, No, no, no, there’s so much science on this. You just have to know where to look. And you have to have access to a lot of these articles. Right. So if anybody has questions Like, hey, what can do you? Have you had any experience? Have you seen any articles on what it does for skin issues? For instance, like if you’re a dermatologist, does has this have any background on things like that psoriasis, eczema, acne, all kinds of different issues? Oh, have you seen any benefit with rheumatology, where we’re talking about rheumatoid arthritis or osteoarthritis? Well, we’re not making any claims here. What I’m saying is that we’re going to find the studies and see, and they’ve had just like we did with the photobiomodulation, just like we did with the stem cells, we can find this stuff and really say, now this makes some sense.

Absolutely. I mean, really, that’s that was the whole idea of why you started KPMD health in the first place is just find a place where people can turn. These are the same questions that come to the GI clinic every single day. And so now we’ve got a place where people can turn and start finding some real answers.

Speaking of questions, yeah. This morning when I was working out, I was listening to Joe Rogan’s podcast and he had Bob lazaar on his

space space

so there’s a there’s a new Netflix movie out there where it’s a What’s it called? UFO and saucers or something? I think it even uses his name as UFO is and Baba czar something I honestly I don’t remember exactly what it’s called. But yeah, I was avoiding it because I figured I was just going to be one of those conspiracy type things but I don’t know man he on Joe Rogan the guy sounded like he was like legitimately scarred from the whole experience and yeah, I don’t want to be painted into a corner,

but I really kind of want to talk to him a little bit more in depth and I want to see if he has any pictures because I thought it was really, honestly it seemed it seemed sincere. And maybe if he’s that good at holding that, that forum for almost four decades then Wow. But I mean, he’s, he’s had those stories for a really really long
time.

It’s really messed him up. Yeah, I mean, he’s, I mean, he. He honestly was saying, I don’t want to be here but I need to get this story out. And while he was on Joe Rogan show, it was like he was bragging or anything, it was
weird. I was listening to another podcast. Can’t remember that comedians name it was on XM Radio. But they were kind of trying to debunk all that and say that he was just, he’s just crazy. And I’m reading an article that just came out that said film on Netflix finds UFO whistleblower, Bob lives are seeming less crazy than ever.

Yeah, well, but the funny thing is, is even just two decades ago, and I can’t remember exactly what all of them were, but some of them were like bone scans, identification systems, and the fact that he said that there was a certain isotope of hydrogen that he knew existed before and had been scientifically denied. But it turns out that a handful of the things that he declared that he had seen before are suddenly now available, the bone scan machine that he described, exactly as he described, it, is now available. The isotope of hydrogen that he described almost three and a half decades ago. Everyone said didn’t exists, suddenly it exists now. And it’s real. And
he’s basically like I find this as a point of vindication. I have stuck to this story. And that’s all been documented. In fact, they even say they whoever the proverbial they is scrubbed His name is he claims they scrubbed his name as being a student in attendance at a few different instance. So that’s

what the other podcast was talking about. They’re like, how can you just have no, don’t exist? Yeah. Yeah, they scrubbed his name from going to MIT or something like that. It was in Cal Poly Cal Poly and MIT and they ended up scrubbing his name that’s what these guys are saying. They’re like that is impossible. Somebody would have known him wreck. That’s how come they think that he may just be crazy in his in his own story and sticking to it, but how is there nobody else saying, Hey, I knew that guy. I went to school with them. He actually went here.

That’s the weird part is there is there’s there’s people who have signed affidavits who are listed as a real students who said that Yeah, he was totally in school. With us, so it’s I don’t know, it’s a very bizarre. I honestly knew nothing about it until I heard that same podcast. I didn’t know anything about it. So Oh, I’m sorry to interrupt

but yo caller online from Alpha Centauri waiting.

Awesome. Thank you, Patrick. No, I’ve spent a lot of time watching videos on YouTube. No, No, I haven’t. I mean, but it’s interesting. It’s a fascinating story

is especially I haven’t seen the new Netflix show. So I have to watch that.

Yeah, check

out Joe Rogan show with what you actually watch both and i think i think the Joe Rogan episode is probably more informative, I think so

that the Netflix thing is okay, but the hearing Bob just talking his own voice I found far more interesting in certainly in terms of the validity would be more compelling. Quite honestly, if I’d seen the Netflix thing first. I don’t know how much I believed. Oh, really? Yeah, he just he just seemed far more genuine and just the long form. interview.

Joe Rogan is such a great host. He really is. He’s turning out intuitive question. So

yeah, without question.

Well, God changed his story in over 30 years. Thanks for the phone call there.

Yeah, Patrick?

Can we only got we’ve only got 20 minutes. So we get Quran on. You want to hit the

Yeah, yeah, I want to hit this so much like Bob Azhar said he goes, this is the stuff we’re looking at. It just could be that like if you dumped a motorcycle on the on the street in Victorian times, oh, people are gonna poke around at it. Somebody may figure out how to turn it on. That’s kind of where he was saying Yeah, like, you know, there’s just so much well in science, we do the exact same thing. We’re going to talk this next hour with Quran and probiotics and spore based biotics because the microbiome is a really big deal. Now, I Tron teal is NSF certified that is certified for sport. The reason why that’s a big deal is because we’re making sure that we get no doping agents in here, right athletes, pro athletes, college athletes. There’s all this reaction to anti doping In everybody keeps putting new things on the list. I got a new one for you. Okay. Probiotics may become anti doping things, really, if they can figure this out. Yeah.

So if you had, what you’re saying is if you can test positive for probiotics, there’s a chance that that would become a flag

there was they were referencing that there was an I don’t remember what it was, but they, whatever sport It was a female had much higher levels of testosterone. Now they are probably curling. Yeah, probably. But they said for her to continue to compete at the Olympic level, she has to actually decrease her testosterone by taking some sort of testosterone blocker because whatever. So they, there’s lots of different things that can be performance enhancers. What this study that just came out June 24. In nature, what it talked about is elite athletes, gut bacteria, give roaded runners a boost. So this group was looking and it’s pretty funny because when you talk about the tension with anti doping, I just wonder if this will suddenly pop up on the anti doping list. What they showed is that proportions of certain bacterial species increase after endurance athletes have completed a marathon. Furthermore, this type of bacteria that increases breaks down lactic acid and produces another compound called propionate. Okay? lactic acid is what makes your muscles tired and sore and weak propria Nate can be used as a fuel. So then I looked at another group of people and this was a series of 15 runners that they were looking at the Boston Marathon. And they found that they looked at another group on some a bunch of very elite rowers, row earners in Olympic trials and they got very similar results. Basically, this type of bacteria, called Vella nella or Vela nella, a tipica increased in both of these groups of people. So villanelle a typical Here’s to have adapted and these elite athletes to break down the lactic acid. Yeah. And form that. So is it chicken or the egg right? Are these people elite athletes because possibly they have a higher proportion of villanelle or did they develop the Val anala A in response to constantly increasing the lactic acid in the body. Wow. So that’s what this group was trying to look at. So they ended up taking a bunch of mice, putting them on a little wheels, treadmills, mice, treadmills, whatever they’re called. And they were able to show in the mice, if they gave them villanelle or rectally, and Orly, they actually had decreased amounts of lactic acid. Now I’ve done that before I’ve gone and done I went to the, to the try shop, and did a whole lactic acid, you push yourself as far as you can go. And my lactic acid just kept going up. And elite athletes, it’ll start to go up, and then it’ll drop because it goes back into the Krebs cycle. Okay, so does that happen because they’ve got more of this villanelle? Or does it happen because they’re elite athletes and their bodies have adapted? I don’t know, it’s really interesting. So their ability essentially, to work or outwork others, because they function better in an anaerobic state? There, right? No, no. But once they go into anaerobic state, then the lactic acid gets put back into the Krebs cycle. So that can be used as fuel again, okay, possibly converted to now I’m thinking it’s possibly being converted to propionic.

Okay. All right.

So and there’s a lot more to it. But what I find really funny is the people that did the study, have a new startup called fit by Ahmet

fit bionics fit bionics

bionic microbiome, okay. All right. So it’s just really interesting to sit there, they’re obviously going to market something to try and increase the amount of this particular species. And what we’re going to learn in the next hour is just how complex it is. You really just can’t say I’m going to take this one. Go back to Dr. Satish Rouse study where he showed people with bacterial overgrowth, they tend to take probiotics that are lactate producing probiotics. Okay? That’s what almost all the probiotics that you can get over the counter. And he showed that that lactate cross the blood brain barrier, which is one of the reasons why a lot of these people maybe have some brain fog, it could be intestinal permeability, leaky gut, it could be that the lactic acid is increasing. We may be using the completely wrong species, maybe we should be using this species to get rid of the lactic acid and produce this propionic. So interesting. Yeah, but it’s going to be now it’s going to be a race. Now everybody’s going to do this a probiotic for sleep. This is a probiotic for endurance. And once again, it still has to make it all the way through the intestinal tract and get rich and start dividing more and increasing the diversity can’t just do one member you have 100 trillion bacteria in your colon, over 1000 species. This is what this is what a lot of the marketing hype has been around, oh, we’re just gonna throw this one at you. And this is gonna do all kinds of things.

That part doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either though, just to simply take a bacteria or a probiotic, just for one desired effect of what you would want, even for sleep, and no doubt that someone will market like that. But it all comes down to the biodiversity of that bacteria anyhow, because you if you were to load up theoretically on sleep bacteria, well, then wouldn’t you just have lethargy all of the times? You see, I’m saying like, it just doesn’t make sense. It’s

marketing on every single on every single line. So this is a mouse study where they said that so they took humans, they check their poop, and they go, Oh, these guys have higher, they have a higher percentage of this particular species. That must mean something, then we’re going to go to rodents, we’re going to give it to them. We know that trying to replicate in a mouse model and a human models extremely difficult. It’s the closest thing we can have because there is Know You can’t keep humans in cages and you know, control their diet and all that, all that other stuff. So there’s a lot of other studies that I’ve seen where they’re like, Oh, this particular group had higher levels of this and they were skinnier. So this is going to be a weight loss probiotic. So it becomes this marketing game with the science being really difficult to prove

it just bastardizing the research, though, it doesn’t make sense to keep doing that. Did you

see the article that came out, I guess, was last week where two people died from a fecal transplant? Yeah, it’s a super unfortunate. It’s the first time that people have had bad outcomes from fecal transplant. You know, everybody gets really excited about the microbiota transplant. Yeah, if you don’t know what this is, there’s a whole new field of science where people are taking one person’s poop, and they emulsify it and then they put it in one way or the other. There’s a lot of different ways to do it, either through a kaleidoscope or you can go way into the small bowel and push it through or we’re in just just to cover the whole right weren’t there some people who taken frozen capsules of poop. And then and then just basically ingesting it like normal. And then the idea was it with thought? Yeah, yeah so the idea would be there with on if you’d all the way through my partner, Dr. Stuart Ackerman, what he was doing is he was getting he was getting stool from this NIH grant location where they’re collecting stole from people they do all the to make sure that there’s no diseases or anything and then they they bring it back and then they inject it. It’s frozen, he emulsifies it goes down with the scope way into the small bowel and then just pushes it beyond the stomach acid beyond the pancreatic where would normally all get killed and gets it way down in there as far down as he can go. And that’s what that’s what he was doing but that’s been shut off because the cost of the poop has gone so high that there’s I don’t know there’s something happened where regulation started coming in the cost to test it for all these other thumb I game yet became prohibitive. So now You know, we all have poop and now it’s a controlled the FDA is, you know, they made it a they wanted when the FMT first came out, they wanted everyone to start applying for a new drug indication. It’s just poop. It’s poop. But unfortunately, this is a big setback because two people died. Apparently the poop had a toxic janicki cola in it. And they didn’t realize that and so they took it one person gave it to two other people. We use it a lot in the hospital for C diff infections. Okay, so if you take antibiotics, not only can you just disrupt your microbiome, but you can actually allow one particular species to dominate yeah to dominate called CTF cluster idiom, difficile, and and if you’ve ever had a relative or you’ve ever experienced that it is not fun and hard to get rid of the fecal transplants were working very, very successful for that. So it’s, it’s unfortunate, but this is the first time that we’ve had, you know, bad outcomes. So people are trying to figure out how to work with this microbiome. It’s almost like we have the ability to test We don’t really know what to do with it. Peter, Peter, Aditya was talking about this on one of his podcasts are just saying, Yeah, we have this ability to do this big gene mapping, we can do PCR analysis, get all these different species, and oh, look, the runners had this, let’s do that. It’s just not that simple. At least up until this point, unless we cracked the code on how to actually figure that part out. That’s one of the game you find different things that you can detect, but learning how to interpret the analysis is it’s a whole nother probably can of worms, just understanding how to apply the science that happens every day. So what do you think the numbers are if we’ve lost these two people, and they’ve directly attributed it to the the transplant itself? Correct out of how many? What do you know? I don’t, I don’t know.

I know you want to rationalize death. But the truth is, it is a number and everything is run through statistics. And it’s unfortunate that this would be a setback. But I say that that we have people who will die today in several that died yesterday and the day before that. From opioid abuse, and that’s not stopped anybody from administering that. So when you when you look at that you put it in those kinds of boxes. It is unfortunate and now we can move forward and make certain that this doesn’t happen. But the fact that the really famous kid back in the 80s, Ryan White who died from AIDS from a blood transfusion, we didn’t stop doing blood transfusions because of that we learned how to get better at doing blood transfusions.

Yeah, I think that the it’s like all things. If it can be sensationalized, yeah, then it’s going to make the news and fecal microbial transplants are always something that is going to make the news because people just go What in the world and they want to read more about it. They want to ask questions about it. It’s been in my field for years and years, decades. We’ve been trying to figure out what to actually do with that, you know, there was the there was a study that came out. I believe it was out of Yale where they took poop from Skinny mice gave it to fat mice, the fat mice got skinny and vice versa. So then that led to this whole study. They’re actually trying to do this at Brigham Young University. And I want to say just got published, but it really didn’t. It didn’t have any weight loss effects.

Oh, really? Yeah. So it worked in mice didn’t work. And he with me got all excited. Go around, find skinny people and be like, Can I have your poop? And you know that they got all excited that that’s what was gonna happen, but it looks like the results didn’t work. It’s really interesting. I wonder what the parameters were around it because I, I kind of figured that it wouldn’t be necessarily that you just simply metabolize food differently. It may have to also, it may also include, what do you what kind of foods do you desire by having that type of bacteria inside so it is small level where mice don’t make a whole lot of decisions, I guess you could say they may just eat a little bit less with that fecal transfer, but maybe the reason why it didn’t necessarily work. This one experiment at Brigham Young, is because people are still left to their own their own devices or vices whenever they’re out there and they could contaminate the sample that they take by saying, well, I’ve got the bacteria, I’m still going to go to fill in the fast food chain restaurant or I should lose weight. I’ve got the bacteria, you know,

that’s a really good observation because you would almost have to have them in a cage to do this because just like we talked about, if your leptin still being blunted, and you’re not, you’re not going to feel full, you may be taking in more calories. Have you ever done that? Like I did My Fitness Pal, thingy? jack carry and I were doing that resource to log all the food that you know, it became really cumbersome, but I was eating way more calories than I thought. Yeah, like, if you would have said, Yeah, man, I’m probably on 2500, whatever. And you just keep adding them up and you’re like, Oh my god, that handful of almonds that you just walk by and throw down and

the hundred percent you look back and you just Try to write off the day like that’s the anomaly and he realized that that day is just like the day before and the day before that.

Now, I’m guilty of that Rhonda Patrick just came out with a podcast with her on a telomere specialist. telomeres are the kind of tell us our age, right? It’s the end caps of the chromosomes. And as we age, they decrease. And they were looking at things that directly affect the telomere length and stress, cortisol, sugar, refined foods, lack of bacterial diversity, same stuff that we’re always talking about, actually can speed up the aging process.

So telomeres can be damaged each time basically that ourselves replicating. And what we don’t want from all the things you just listed is telomere shortening, because that enables the sales to age more quickly and basically, as I understand it, the DNA does not get replicated

in the future with the new the new daughter said The new younger selves in there. That’s another complex thing when we were at IFM. I don’t know if you remember that, but there’s booths where people check your telomere length. But not only was it real well, that’s what Rhonda was talking about when she, there’s so many different ways that it can be affected, what lab it is, what are you going to do with the inflammation? And now there’s companies out there that are selling products to increase telomerase or decrease telomerase. I remember whatever. Yeah, I think it’s the increased telomerase, which is an enzyme that kind of protects the telomere this I’m just going off top my head as podcast because it gets really I mean, you know, it’s Rhonda, Patrick’s, you’re super sciency and geeky. And with that, we don’t know because sometimes you want shortening, because if it’s a cancer cell, you want that you want the body to recognize that and it’ll go away. And that way you don’t have because cancer cells will grow so fast, that you need that shortening to prevent that from happening. So we don’t know if trying to mess with telomeres is going to do something like that, but The same thing keeps coming around over and over and over. If you get sleep, eat, right, you feed your microbiome what it needs like polyphenols, yeah, like spore based biotics, then decrease the inflammation with CBD, then all of that your body will figure out what to do. So sometimes whenever we talk about articles where people are going, Oh, you want to take this one probiotic, and you’re going to run faster, probably overthinking. Maybe if we just kind of got rid of those refined foods, the emulsifiers and the high sugar and all that stuff.

Man, huge takeaway here is that you, you kind of if you step back, you realize that there are there are real researchers that want to make things happen. The crazy unfortunate thing is oftentimes a marketer will simply just take the data and then want to be the first to make something happen. Rather than make certain that the science is solid, or a company has a good product and they just want to race to get out there and get a second product that doesn’t necessarily bringing value without having the research back behind it and honestly that’s that’s the really cool part of being a part of KB MD health and KBS is that we, we’ve always tried to make certain that the data is solid, do no harm Be sure that you can help someone before you just turn a product lives.

Well now you’re making me feel bad because I’m actually scratching out abdominal discomfort and putting increase Vale anala. And then underneath that protect your telomere. The only product available which will make you faster and younger trying to

get your telomeres cereal today.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I don’t know. It’s it. You don’t want to paint a picture of the whole world going dark but but if you’re listening, just protect yourself

when you if I go to these conferences and you listen to some of these scientists like valter Longo and these guys that are doing the research. Yeah. And like when Rhonda Patrick talks and such and panda. It’s very well. This is what we saw. We believe this is the We can extrapolate that and it’s real grades not like you see, when you’re talking to a market or like, private Jen will increase your memory. And it’s like, well, wait a minute. Let’s back up. Let’s, let’s look at those studies. These guys that are out there, all these PhDs, they’re not that will I find them fun, but sometimes it’s not that fun to listen to them. I don’t really land on anything. They’re like this. We kind of think this is what’s happening with him. It’s frustrating to the general public and and they’re pioneers. And he’s probably a lot like Lewis and Clark. They made their way through, they’re just mapping. They’re not necessarily saying that everything’s going to be roses by the time they get out to to the west coast, right. I mean, they were just finding their way there. They just basically charted it as it came along. Yeah, we talked last week about all those medical reversals where they were looking at all the medical reversals, they had three they found out in The Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine and JAMA, that when they looked back at trials, they showed that 369 straight up medical reversals as to Taking place, like we talked about where we thought estrogen was really good for every woman take a bunch. And then if we realized it was actually increasing heart attacks, so it’s really complex. And it’s hard to sit there and say, Okay, let’s look at an article, this bacteria, it’s going to increase running and they’re immediately. I mean, I would I guess I would do if I was the scientists are like we do a startup right now. So they’re doing this startup called fit bionics.

Yeah. But it’s no different than the multi billion dollar industry. That is probiotics. If you talk to Dr. Quigley. That’s not how he describes it. He just says, We hope that they weren’t great. What do you say they weren’t great in a petri dish? Yeah, we just cannot seem to replicate it consistently in humans. Right. And that’s this. Honestly, that leads right into the next thing. Kiran Krishnan is here to explain the real data and the
application in humans on what the correct type of probiotic delivery system can do for you. I this is You’ve heard me talk like this for so long. This is the first time a microbiologist is going to know exactly No, you’re, you’re right. And here’s why. Right, this is and I studied this. And so I’m really excited to get this kind of information out there. And very pleased that we’re teaming up with them for our member box so that we can put the two together and you’ll see why they work together. But I think it’s really cool. Be sure to like and share the gut check project. If there’s anything that you wanted to take away from today’s show, you can just show the next hour to anybody who’s ever been exposed to probiotics ever whatsoever. You’ll learn a ton I know that Ken and I both did. Quran is he’s amazing. He’s very intelligent, and he’s got real data to show something that you probably never knew about probiotics.

Right on, everybody. Enjoy. We’ll pick it up here in about two minutes.

All right. Welcome to the gut check project as promised. We are here in San Antonio with KKirann Krishnan of Microbiome Labs, makers of Megaspore and 35 other private labels, right?

Yeah, we’re busy. We’re busy.

This is a busy man. Yeah. Got a lot of science behind him. He’s got a lot of people that like what they do with probiotics, and it’s a completely new way of using probiotics. Can you think of that?

Well, what I think for starters, I just got a text from your mom and that’s good.

Yeah, she’s always listening. Yeah.

Be careful.

need to apologize to all the listeners just in case you don’t like the sound level? It’s because I’m doing it and I don’t know exactly how. Eric the engineer Yeah, yeah. Eric, really, really bad engineer Jeff. Shift, Patrick sorry. That’s the best we can do. So we’re

over here at the IFM conference in San Antonio. And we’ve, you and Eric have met before at different conferences. I love the work that you guys are doing. Yo, let’s just start with this. Who are you?

Yeah, good question. So we are a band of super nerds that, that that are battling the revolution that is going on within the gut. Right. So we know that and this is the way I explained it to people all the time. If you look at the human construct, we’re essentially a microbial system. We are the fancy word for it. For those that want to impress your friends is hollow bio, holo bio OBM. We are a super organism. We’re no more can we think of ourselves as a collection of organ system to the brain and you know, lungs In heart and all that connected by neurons and vessels, we are as a walking talking rain forest is what we are, right we are an organism made up of thousands of other organisms that have to work in concert to perpetuate the health of the collective. That’s what the that’s what a whole biome is. Right? It’s like a rain forest. So if you look at the rain forest, the canopy, the floor, every part has a different ecology. And if any of those ecologies get damaged, the entire rain forest suffers. So we can trace back now, virtually every chronic disease, just some disruption in our ecology. So in our thinking, we are a microbial construct, were made up of microbes. We’ve taken this amazing microbial construct, and we’ve put ourselves in an anti microbial world, right, so we really shot ourselves in the foot like crazy. Everything around us destroys our inner ecology, and that leads to disease. So we’re here fighting that whole problem and revolution of bringing back our ecology.

Back to ecology, fixing the rain forest. Love that Yeah, I always talk I always tell my patients about I’ve never used the word hello biome. I say multi biome because I quit talking about just your microbiome. There’s other things going on. You’re exactly right. We are do we live for the multi biome? Or does the multi biome live for us?

Yeah, you know, if you look at the evidence and you look at the history, essentially we are an accident, because of the multivitamin, right. So, even the human cell is constructed of ancient bacteria, right? The the
eukaryotic human cell is basically a construct of ancient bacteria, which which make up our, our, what’s the word? I’m having a brain fart. The energy production of the cell mitochondria, mitochondria. Yeah, sorry. So ancient bacteria was essentially individual mitochondria. That all kind of came together to form a eukaryotic cell, build a nucleus around it.

Oh, so you guys in a way back,

way back. We’re going back to the beginning of time, right? Like where all of this started from Because if we don’t understand that, then how do we understand how long two to four? Right? So just going back to the simplicity of it, because, as it turns out when we start looking at these unique multicellular organisms that we are, and
we’re a small population of what’s living in the universe, or in the in the world, we don’t know what’s living universe, well, what’s living on Earth, most of it are single cellular organisms, right? Most of living entities are single cellular. When we look at multicellular organisms. When we look at how multicellular organisms communicate from one cell to the other, all of those rules are written by single cellular organisms. You know, hormones, for example, most people are surprised to know that our microbiome in the gut produces virtually every hormone our endocrine system can make, right? All of the serotonins and dopa means all of the stress hormones, all insulin, estrogen, testosterone, all of that is made by the microbiome as well. And the thinking is that that our microbiome actually taught our endocrine system how to make us home months. So the bacteria provided the DNA code to our endocrine system to figure out how to make hormones and that care of and using hormones from millions of
years to communicate with one another. And so we now use hormones to communicate within our body itself.

This is so fascinating because in my field, the microbiome is a relatively new concept, traditional medicine. And here you’re talking about that the microbiome actually taught our bodies how to organize how to live in the world, how to move that is fascinating, because when we think about it,

the way that other people talk about Oh, it’s so complex, we don’t know that you just dumbed it down to Oh, no, it’s actually so simple because it can started Yeah, with just one cell. That’s that. Eric, what do you follow this here, I’m falling and what I think is awesome as its way it does seem like that it’s so simple. However, it’s not just the dumbed down version of what you just need some good bacteria is way, way way different than that you have to understand I’ve, for a long time kind of felt like that. We Our vehicles for this bacteria. Yeah. And everywhere that you go, you’re basically kind of being driven. Yeah, what it is? I mean, the the chemical messengers that you referenced? Yeah, we interpret that, but is it really completely ours to interpret it? Not? Not necessarily.

Yeah. Well, and you know, there’s evidence of bacteria making us do things right. And and you would think that there is some altruistic reason for them to do it. For example, there are certain types of bacteria within your microbiome that make you more social, that make you go out actually give you the motivation to go out and meet people. And the reason for that, and you think, oh, why did the bacteria want me to be more social? Well, that’s one of the ways that they transfer from host to host is that if you’re not social, we’re anti social, you sit back and back in the day, we sat back in your cave all the time by yourself, you’re really not going out there and spreading this micro this microbiome. There are there are bacteria out there that can actually change your outlook on life. There was a study looking at women who took probiotics versus women that didn’t and they Women that took probiotics and then a group that didn’t. And they showed them a bunch of pictures, and they were measuring brainwave activity. And they were showing them like really stressful pictures, things that would bother them normally. And they found that the women that took probiotics on a regular basis actually had a less intense emotional response to those pictures. So their outlook on life seemed a little bit better than the ones that did. You know, and so these microbes are dictating a lot of how we even respond to the world around us.

So it’s fascinating because as gastroenterologist, we always, I always try and get people to feed their microbial fluids, eat the diet, that your bacteria really should have our diverse bacteria. And now we have the highest incidence of anxiety of depression. I mean, and all we’re doing is just throwing more and more drugs at it, trying to get that to be corrected, when the reality is if we could balance the bacteria. And now you know what you and I really liked about this. This is Excuse me. For me to go to Vegas with my buddies, bacteria tell me to get out. For Health, that is one of the best places to swap back
to microbial.

I’m going to Vegas to keep away disease,

especially at three in the morning when your

activity up. That’s what

I do have a question though. So the study which I find completely fascinating, what it didn’t matter what the delivery system is, and the reason I asked that is because we we oftentimes can through the practice we talked about, not all probiotics, number one are created equal. And even more than that the delivery system, which is how we lot yeah, so kind of talk about that. Why does it matter how a probiotic is delivered? Yeah. And I’ll let you take from there.

Yeah, yeah. So that’s critical because in large part, you know, what we saw when we started studying probiotics and the way we even got into the space is

I’m gonna I just want to know a little more than history. How did you end up even looking at the bacteria whole thing? Yeah. So

I when I got into Natural space. I’m a microbiologist by training and I was a research nerd. And I had a big, you know, interest in the whole natural health space. And I would go to places like GNC and I’d buy products and an ask them about this studies. And they had no, I mean, most products don’t have studies on the marketplace. And I started questioning companies like, why don’t you have more studies? And really what I ended up finding out is that it’s too expensive to do clinical trials, right? A vitamin company can afford a half a million dollar trial to figure out the product doesn’t work. Yeah, right. And pharma companies do that all day long, right? They have one in 1000 compounds that is successfully enter market, but they’ll spend millions of dollars on those 999 that don’t do anything, or do something really bad. But nutritional companies just can’t afford that. So I said, There’s gotta be a way we can change the paradigm of how you do clinical trials to to make it more affordable and make it more functional for nutritional companies. Number one, figured all the disease outcomes right? So if I have a compound a natural compounds that can reduce blood pressure. If I did $100,000 study on blood pressure, the problem with it is I can’t talk about it because you FDA doesn’t allow you to go out there and say, you know, this, this extract reduces blood pressure. Well,

let’s talk about that really quick also, because you know, because we’re in the same space, I like I started. Yeah. As a gastroenterologist doing pharmaceutical research. And when you start talking about these products, before you even get to the point where you can say what it is, you have to go to an IRB and apply for an NDA and all these other acronyms totally didn’t make it almost prohibitive. Yeah. For somebody that’s trying to be altruistic and go Look, I just want to know if this works Totally,

yeah. And the outcomes, you know, what, like, what what are we really figuring out and studying here and so what I did is taking blood pressure as an example, rather than looking at the the final outcome of, you know, reducing the pressure in the vein we using a cough like anyone else would I look at structure or functional changes. In the in the pathway to reducing blood pressure. So looking at changes to angiotensin enzyme and so on, you know, so looking at structure function change that lead to that outcome, rather than looking for the outcome itself. And and the FDA allows you to talk about structure function changes in the body. Right? So that’s how I figured in and with those kind of biomarker changes, you don’t need as many subjects, you can do smaller wireless, study your smart, right, and then we were able to do so I was doing all of these studies, with 810 15 patients, giving companies an idea what their product might do in the system, what the ultimate outcome might be looking at small changes in the pathway. So those products

and so were you drawing blood levels of angiotensin?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And attention angiotensin converting enzyme, we’re looking at things like real logical measures on the blood, the viscosity of the blood using this machine color rail log. That measures real time viscosity, the blood and what work it takes to pump that blood through through the vascular system. Where were you doing? So? So then I opened the CRL clinical research organization, okay. My mom is a medical doctor. She’s listening, by the way for correct pronunciation as he said, Mom, hi, how are you? So she’s a medical doctor, I made her my principal investigator. And we opened in the south side of Chicago clinical research organization. And I started working with supplement companies and saying, Hey, I can design a clever study for you to figure out what your product is doing. It’s not going to cost you much. And you can pilot it. You know, if you do a pilot study for 20 grand, and you get some idea that your product has a benefit, then it’s easier to invest 50 or 70 into a bigger study, because then you know, you can get the marketing benefit of doing that, right. But companies are just not going to spend 100 grand right off the bat and figure out the product doesn’t do anything. So I created clever pilot studies and things to give people an idea. And from doing that, I started getting companies inviting me to come on their board scientific board or helping them with product development. The supplement world. And that’s how I got into the supplement world. So it’s purely from the backside, the research and having this research organization. So

in a field where there’s really little to no research, you started with the research and work your way into the field worked

at work at it. And then really, I came to immediately find out who the best companies were because 98% of them were like, yeah, we’re not really interested in doing it clinical trial, like, but it’s 20 grand, and you can figure out whether your products actually making any change in the body. We don’t really want to know that. I think a lot of it is they don’t want to know it does. It’s not doing anything.

Well, I think a lot of it is and we have we have discussed this before on the show that you know, they did that analysis where they looked at products that they pulled them off the shelf and DNA analysis showed that almost 80% of them did not have what was in the capital on the label. Yeah, so and that and we know that since we’ve been in processing, you know this as well, but unless you see where it’s being source, yeah, how it’s being extracted, how it’s moved over. Yeah, there are so many players. In a chain, when it’s a mass commodity totally that you may end up not having an all what you think you have in that caps. Yeah,

and you have to test it at every step of the way to, you know, when you bring the raw material in before you blend it in with all this stuff. After you encapsulated every step, you have to do the testing again, to verify that it’s still what you want it to be. But, you know, there was a large multinational company that that founded and I was working with them on product development. And they basically came and said, You know, they were pretty big probiotic company to begin with, and but they were getting a lot of competition in the retail space from New probiotics coming in. And a lot of those probiotics are what I call the kitchen sink, probiotics. We just kind of throw everything in it, you know, we’re just going to put 19 strains in this and euro and I’m sitting in these meetings and go why 19 strains like why did you pick these strains and they go, Well, our competitor has 17 a little bit better. And

you probably saw the evolution like I did where it started out as like we got 1 million family forming units and the The next person is 10. And then that’s 20. Now looks like we have 1 trillion it’s in this one capsule. Yeah. Just somebody actually played counting that. It just becomes a marketing thing. It’s all

marketing. And I would sit down in these because I, you know, like I mentioned, I became part of advisory boards of companies. And I’d sit down in these meetings were the developing products, and they would go we want 15 strains and 50 billion, and I and my first reaction is, number one, why 15 strains? Why 50 billion? Like, do you have some sort of study I’m not aware of that shows 50 billion works and 30 billion doesn’t they go? Well, no, this is the closest competitor, they have 35 billion, so we want to be just that much more. Right. And then here’s where it really becomes bad. It’s like they have a company that they’re benchmarking next to and and they want to be higher count than that company, but they want to be same price point. So if you’re putting more in and you want to be at the same price, the more that you put in, ends up being lower quality, because you can’t spend as much on it. Right, so now you’ve got 20 25% more ingredients in there higher amounts. And yet you have to be at the same price point. So you have to go with a lower value ingredient product. So now we’ve got things like lactobacillus acidophilus, which is the number one. probiotic strain in any product, right? You find it everywhere in probiotic products, you can buy a tanker load of it for like three grand, really a tanker load of it. It’s insane. Yeah.

And so when you’re in the probiotic world, and not in that world, yeah. When you do start buying the raw materials for probiotics, how is that actually does it calm is like a like a culture bath. Is it an ag? or What is it?

So I’m so glad you asked me that question. Because when we saw that study from, from UC Davis such that tested the products on the market by DNA, yeah. Right. And they showed that the vast majority of products that they tested, did not have the right strains in the capsule that was claiming a label. And then you ask yourself, Well, how in the world is that happen? Right? Like it’s like launching a product that says vitamin C, and there’s no But vitamin A in it. Yeah. Right? Like, how do you make that mistake? So it all comes back to how you buy probiotics. So if I’m a probiotic company and I’m going to put together a product, I go, Okay, I want these 10 strains in it. I’ll call my ingredient distributor and I’ll say, I want acidophilus rhamnosus, you know, kci, whatever the strains are, shipped me a drum of each, it’ll come to you as a drum. You open the drum, it’s just a powder. And there’s no way you know that this is actually lactobacillus acidophilus. There is something called a CFA a certificate analysis from the manufacturer that says you have now purchased lactobacillus acidophilus but how do you know that right that it just powder is you can’t tell in order to really verify that you have to send that powder to some university or lab to do full DNA analysis in order to verify that actually is but that’s not part of the regular the GMP regulations, so nobody’s doing it. Right. So manufacturer sends you a drum of powder and they say, this is like the buses acid office and you go Okay, yes, it is and you put in your capsule You put the product on the shelf.

So how do you even know that it’s even viable? Also, I’ve always wanted this because people say is it actually

yeah, now some companies will do a plate count. So they’ll take a known amount of it like a, like a gram, mix it in water and played it to see if it actually grows. The problem is, something is going to grow. Because there’s bacteria in there. You just don’t know what bacteria, right? So you look at the colonies, and you can’t tell what bacteria that’s when the colonies, but you go, Oh, great, something’s growing. It must be fine. And then you put it in the capsule, and you put it on the shelf, and you have no idea what’s in the product. Wow, no idea.

So that’s how the typical probiotics are there. But you have something very unique. Yeah. Now let’s get to Eric’s question that

yeah, totally so. So when that multinational company hired us to do research for them, we approached the probiotic industry purely from an objective standpoint, to do research for them to figure out what is going to be the next generation of probiotics. So we started studying all the stuff in the market. And we started to figure out that the vast majority of probiotics in the market are dying in the stomach, whether if they have bacteria in it, the dying in the stomach, you’re basically pooping it out eight hours and 12 hours later. They’re not most of them are dying on the shelf, even if they even get to your stomach. And then I even had the, you know, the approach of going to health food stores, and just asking people, I’ll go, what are your best probiotics and the clerks that always pointing to the stuff in the refrigerator? Right. And I would go and as a microbiologist, I’m always confused. Like, why are they sitting in the refrigerator? So it asked them and they go, why they in the refrigerator, and they say, well, these are the highest quality, they’re live culture. And to keep them as live culture. You got to refrigerate them. Right? And they’d say, okay, and when you buy them, take them home and put them in refrigerator. And I’d Okay, so they sat on the shelf, they would die and they’d go Yes, that’s why make sure you keep them refrigerator. I’m like, it’s 70 degrees in the shelf. It’s 98.6 degrees in the body. How is it going to survive there? We can’t sit on the shelf at 70 degrees and they never had an answer. You know, so to me, I was like, all this stuff that’s in the refrigerator makes absolutely no sense at all. And so we wanted to take a completely different approach. So we started going, where did our ancestors get their probiotics from? Right? We have this really intimate relationship between us and bacteria. They conduct many functions. For us. That doesn’t occur overnight. So there must be this long term relationship with bacteria. And we look at our ancestors, they were smart enough to eat dirt, right? They didn’t clean their environment, they didn’t sterilize their environment. And so we started focusing on environmental bacteria. Now, the thing is, most environmental bacteria can’t act as probiotics, most of them will die in the stomach as well. So we started kind of honing in on what bacteria we would come across in the environment that actually had some special function that could act as a probiotic. The first one that we came across with these bacillus endo spores. So these are unique bacteria that belong in the gut, but they leave the gut through dedication and when they go out in the environment, When they go out in the environment, they go into the spore form. And because they’re in the spore form, they put like an armor light coating around themselves. And they can use that armor light coating to survive through the gastric system and actually end up in the intestines.

Well, so you just go ahead and talk with them.

Think it’s still going

I’ve done this during podcast

and the podcast always keeps you on So okay,

that’s okay. Yeah.

Yeah, I do that is it’s a no

it’s this moment to answer some I gotta go slow.

And go

to get

Okay, so let’s get back to the Can you describe what I said? For the first for biotic Did you guys wanted to crush it?

Yeah. So we were we were trying to find these environmental bacteria that had this special characteristic of being able to cover themselves with the sport coding so that they can actually naturally survive through the gastric system. And we we looked at research and we went to the biggest best researcher in the sport world. It’s Dr. Simon cutting out of Royal Holloway, university London. Oh, well, yeah, so he’s been studying sports, and he runs the international sport event and all that. So he’s Super Sport nerd, basically. Right. And then there’s some. There’s some really interesting stuff that he’s doing using sports as a vaccine delivery vehicle, which we should talk about at some point. But But basically, we went to him and we licensed a bunch of sports, said, We want your sports that we know function in the gut. And so we licensed five sports for him and we looked at the function of each one and we saw that each one did a little bit of a different role in the gut. And so we put together the first multi spore based probiotic with the idea that these spores are number one actually survive through the gastric system and go in the gut and start making a change to the rest of the microbiome.

So as a microbiologist, can you explain to everybody that so the bacteria gets into spore form, they can tolerate cold, hot, it just waits. Yeah. What is it wait for

Ah, so it’s waiting for a molecular handshake. I call it with the mucosal cells in the small intestine. So the moment it gets right into the duodenum or do it in and there’s some cool people say it will help gastroenterology say do it or do it

good.

The upper part of the good so it gets into the upper part of the God and, and we have and they have the suckers on the outside of the spore that tell them that they’re in the gut, mucosal tissue. So that binding the temperature and then some nutrients will get us out of the sport state. You know, and but it can remain in the sport state outside of the body for literally millions of years. The oldest Found was spot was found in fossilized amber be in the gut of the be they were they actually found a whole ancient be that was fossilized, drilled into the gut to find what the substrates were the gut, they pulled out some spores and they could still play it it was still alive 250 million years old. That’s insane to me. That sounds like Jurassic Park South Park. Yeah, it does.

So let’s see about this because the way that I’ve kind of been telling my patients the reason why I like spore based, is that because that sport can actually survive both the acidic environment and it starts that handshake in this one about Yeah, it’s really bad to really proliferate, where your real microbiome is. Now,

yeah, towards the end of small bow.

Yeah. So it starts

the handshake. And by the time it makes it down there, it’s fully awake. So it’s like, I almost liken that if we’re going to start talking about movies that’s almost like, you know, time travel and getting the pod and as you get close, yeah, you start to wake up so

Totally, yeah, it’s sort of it’s making its way through The small bow. What’s interesting is it makes a an interesting a couple of stops in the small bow real. So yeah, so we always encourage people to take it with food. The reason we do that is in the presence of food, the bacteria produce digestive enzymes. So the spores are the largest commercial producers of protease. amylase, suddenly is enzymes, like most of the enzymes that you find from from fermentation that are the big commercial enzymes are produced actually by sports. So all

these enzymes that you can get to these functional places there are responsible as they’re not produced, because I was told that they were plant based and

yeah, so so some of them are extracted from plant, most of them are made by fungal fermentation is for fermentation. I do. Yeah, they make them they make the enzymes and so they’ll, they’ll help you digest your food. They’ll hang out for a little while and the small bowel with the food there. They’ll produce all of these digestive enzymes help you break down your food, then they’ll move down and the part that’s really interesting is that they moved to the to the ilium, where the players patches are yeah interact with the players patches regulate T and B cell proliferation. So they are some of the strongest proliferators of t and B cells how we I hate to do this we are up against the break we’re going to be joined the second half hour we are not don’t forget if you’re listening right now to gut check project you are looking at Karen Christian, talking about hi spore based probiotics are the best way for you to consume probiotics. Hang on gut check project back kitchen. Okay, break here. We’ll come back and then do the 2830 started here. Don’t lose your train of thought. I’ll just reintroduce and we’re gonna start Rebecca it’s really awesome. Thank you. Yeah, of course you need to check the game

now that that part is going well. Now I know to mine This also just just just touch the

mouse pad. Let’s go on.

Yeah, I am. Okay. So, we’re going to start again, Ron is listening here. The bar Count 796 point 432

Okay, we are back with the last half hour of gut check project we are joined by Karen Krishnan who is going to completely change your mind on how to consume probiotics what they can do for you take it away because we just unfortunately take crazy break just to

do it. So white

right when we left for the break, you were talking about the incredible journey of the sport. This should be a children’s book writers

working on

short I love it. Yeah, the incredible journey of the spore bacteria. So yeah, now you were just talking about the alien. And what does it do that

so in the payers patches, which is you know, one of the biggest areas of sampling and your God for your immune system, they actually interact with the with the immune cells and the payers factors, and they up regulate your T cell and B cell expression very significantly. And you see that through the the Paris patches are connected with the messenger lymph node, and you see that proliferation of your immune cells throughout the body and in fact, you Get a lot of anti inflammatory cytokines expression right at that juncture. So because the spores are what we call immunogenic, they’re so strong and interacting with their players patches. That’s why I preface it before by saying he’s developing vaccines using the spores as a delivery vehicle. So here’s how that works. This is fascinating, right? So they’re able to take the spore and take like a tetanus antigen. For example, instead of doing a tetanus vaccine, where you inject it, you stick it on the spore and you swallow it, the sport takes it all the way down to the ilium to the various patches and presents that antigen to the immune cells and you get a more robust in adapt ation response to that then injecting it in your arm or your thigh or anywhere else you would do it. And so like for example, they did a study on women when they used it as a vehicle for tetanus vaccination, and they gave them a spore with the 10 percentage and on it within two hours of swallowing it they could find that anti tetanus antibodies in the vaginal canal of the of the female subjects. That’s how fast it proliferated through the immune system. And they found the antibodies that go against that tetanus antigen, even in places like the vaginal canal or the upper respiratory tract. You know, that’s how important it is. And that’s why I tell people to let their kids eat burgers. It comes down to that, you know, and I’ve been thinking about burgers for some time, because I think about all these evolutionary behaviors, right?

Do you recommend them eating their own or other?

Well, I think I think if we really want to do it, right, we got it. We gotta have family booger parties, neighborhood or parties. But when you think about it, like I have a five year old and an eight year old, and each of them when they were between the ages three and my five year olds still in that phase a little bit. You know, you see them saying that and it’s so natural for them to pick their nose pull up this really disgusting looking thing and why is the instinct to put in your mouth, right and you lose that instinct after a certain amount of time, right? So I’ve been thinking about boogers for a while and then I’m I realized that what is a booger, it’s a vaccine, it’s an oral vaccine, you pick up, viruses, molds, all of that stuff in your upper respiratory tract. It’s now covered with IGA and mucus and all that. And then when you swallow it, it goes into your system and you get sample by the payers, patches and the alien. And that gives you the immunity and the adaptation to that. Same with the whole mucus, Hillary elevator, it’s designed for you guys for to pull up stuff from the lungs and all that and swallow it, right. And the whole swallowing I concept is important, because all this stuff is sampled in the gut immune system. So the spores act in that way as well. So we’ve had success, for example, with people that have dairy sensitivity or an allergic reaction to certain food compounds. And when we eliminate that food from the person’s diet, allow their gut to heal a little bit, bring down the inflammation. Then we have knocks it’ll slowly introduce the food and really miniscule amounts with the spores because this Then kind of present the food antigen to the Paris patches and up regulate your adaptive immune response. So you build oral tolerance, so the food so we can re adapt the way our body respond to things.

Alright, so this is I’m

blown away because this is the first time I’ve ever thought about this. I just want to, I want to reiterate a couple things here. So a spore based probiotic. Yeah, I was getting it wrong. I was thinking of a probiotic like everybody else. We’re just there good for you just feeding your own microbiome. Yeah, we know it. We worked with the PhD out of Texas Tech, where he was trying to develop a probiotic for C. diff infection. Yeah. And he had a mouse model and it goes, it’s incredible. It completely gets rid of it that Hail Hail. Yes, yes, Dr. Hale, and he was telling me just how amazing it was. Yeah, the only problem is, it didn’t work if they gave it orally. The only time it worked is when they they stuck a catheter in the alien and it just Today yes which means it wasn’t survived intelligence we call it what I’m hearing is the spore based probiotics have a completely different mechanism else thinking it isn’t like they’re just populating, they’re presenting they’re truly vehicles, they are jammed down there and presenting to the immune system. Yeah, so in the alien, which is the part of the small intestine that then dumps into the colon. It does a lot of important things that are just like you’re talking about step of pires patches, which has been T cells and it presents it that’s where you absorb the 12 and a lot of other things. This is absolutely incredible. I never thought of it.

Why didn’t I know about this before you know, we’ve been so silent about it. We’ve been slowly tinkering in the lab with all of this stuff. And then just in the last couple years bringing all this out, and we haven’t had the option to sit down and talk as well. So it’s all coming out. So in the research world does a lot about this. That’s why we’ve been developing these not we have but Dr. Cutting has been developing all of these vaccine delivery vehicles with the spores, because it does so much with respect to the immune system. One of the things that does is it th one th to balance we see that quite a bit. So people who tend to be very inflammatory and respond to everything in an inflammatory manner, we can actually bring back the th to adapt mode teach one adaptive response in those people. We see a balance of interleukin 10 which is a sidechained that brings down inflammatory response versus bringing that up and then bringing down it’ll look at six you know, all of these balances that we see.

So we see this so in my world and Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis, we always talk about that one being a teacher, one one being attached to, and then you have all these illusions happening and TNF alpha interferon gamma ‘s and stuff and then you have drug companies going Oh, it must be this TNF. Let’s do an infusion the cost 10,000 a month. And it’s the exact same thing that I was talking about with doctrinal to Mother Nature still does it better. Totally.

Absolutely. Mother Nature always says and this is, you know, millions of years in the making and it’s just sitting out here in the environment for us. I always say that you know, we were just smart enough to to understand that we should look to nature for what nature has created and then just be smart enough to use it. That’s all we can be right we can never outsmart nature. And we see that happening all the time in the in the infant formula world, which always drives me crazy because, you know, for literally 100 years, multi billion dollar companies have been working on infant formula to try to match it to mother’s milk. And they can we know if you feed your baby infant formula versus breastfeeding natural mother’s milk, they’re going to have a lot of metabolic and other immune issues down the road. They tend to have higher degrees of heart incidence rate of diabetes, cardiovascular disease, allergies, and so on. Despite the billions of dollars have gone into figure out how to create infant formula. We know that you cannot match them. millions of years of evolution of mother’s milk, right nature knows what it’s doing. We just have to kind of follow be smart enough to figure out what nature has offered us and then use it. That’s that’s kind of our focus on probiotics.

That is so fascinating. The silicon my world, we don’t see autoimmune disease, Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis in third world countries, right. And the myopic view was, Oh, it’s because they’re parasites there. We don’t have it here. Right. So they have tried multiple times to feed people with words, in the hopes of tricking the immune system. The reality is, they’re getting a lot more spore based starts what it is, then they are getting parasites because we never been able to actually say, okay, it’s parasites. Yeah. So it’s probably the spore based aspect

it is and then the spores control the rest of the microbiome too. That’s what we were really interested on is, you know, like the product we have the major sports five strains in it. And the biggest question we always get is, well, it’s just five strengths should we need we need more, right? And we say no. depends it depends on what the strains are doing in the system. We’ve always had this idea that the five strings can actually get in and significantly changed the presence of a lot of other bacteria in the gut. Right, we think of them as the orchestrators of the microbiome. And in fact, we’ve kind of outsource this function to these bacteria, because there’s very little control that we have within our own system to manage the ecology in our gut, right. If our ecology goes off, because of a single round of antibiotics, there’s very little our own body can do to try to bring it back. Right. That’s all done in control by bacteria. And so we know that these sports have been in the prescription market since 1952. By big companies like Sanofi event is in Germany, France, you’re in the market. Yeah, they’ve been prescription drugs, actually. Yeah, for treating dysentery and for treating gut infections, because they’re so good at going in using something called quorum sensing. We’re back here read the microbial environment, they look at other bacterial chemical signatures. They’ll find pathogenic bacteria, they’ll sit next to them. And they produce upwards of 24 different antibiotics in that little space to kill off those pathogenic bacteria. Right? So they have the capability of doing that if we have time, we’ll talk about a funny camel dog story of how this was even discovered. We have time for we have to make time for Canada. Always.

general rule in the show.

We’re gonna skip on camera.

No, but what was fascinating to us about it is if these microbes have the capability of identifying and bringing down the levels of pathogenic bacteria, they’ve got to be able to do the opposite of increasing the growth of good bacteria. So we did two studies that are going to be published sometime in the next three months, where we saw when you add these spores into the microbiome, it increases the diversity of the microbiome by almost 45%. Really, yeah, five strains can bring back the growth of over 300 other strings, right and and increases the diversity by by two measures. One is richness, which is how many different bacteria are present within the sample and to uniformity, it actually brings back uniformity to the microbiome. Nothing else has been shown to be able to do that, you know, and it’s almost mind blowing that you would think you can add five strains. And somehow these strains that weren’t in your gut previously, are now there. Where do they come from as a question, right. And so we dug into that a little bit too. And we found out that in in certain people, these microbes are there, but they’re such low levels. They’re completely undetectable by our bar research methods, even by things like q PCR, which is a really sensitive method. We couldn’t find certain strains in people and then we give them the probiotic. And next thing you know, they’re there, hundreds of billions of that same bacteria now present in the gut. So they were there. They’re just there. It’s such tiny amounts, that they’re non functional. And the spores go in and they identify the bacteria that are beneficial but a suffering and they increase their growth.

So when they get in when those spores and Take it to the colon, do they then do a lot of they they actually become part of the crowd, or do they remain in spore form continue?

Yeah, so they Yeah, they become vegetative state, which is their growing state. So it’s interesting their life cycle. So what they do is when they first get into duodenum, they’re in the spore form, which is how it is in the product. And then when they get into duodenum to do that molecular handshake, they come out of the spore form it much of the small intestine, they are actually in that vegetative state, which is their active multiplying state, they’re doing all of these functions, when they get to the ilium, where the where the pair’s patches are, they go back into the spore form, because as it turns out, they are more immunogenic in the spore form than in the vegetative form. So that is fascinating when we found that in one of our studies, is that they are vegetative state, when they get to that part of the intestine, they go, Oh, I know where I’m they go back to the spore form because they’re now interacting with the immune cells in the spore form. And then when they go past it alien when they enter the proximal part of large file, they go back into The vegetative state, they come out of the spore form again. Now when they’re at the very end of the large, large bottle, when they’re terminal and large, while they’re about to get pooped out, they go back into the spore form again, because they know they’re entering the outside world because then they’re gonna, they’re going to be the environment, you know, with their things like UV radiation and all that.

So why does every single vector in the world to this

Yeah, this this is smart and this is co evolution over millions of years of these bacteria that we’ve been swallowing inadvertently. And then the way I think about it is you know, the the world became covered in microbes, right? Those are the first living things on earth we know that for a fact and will actually talk about something called panspermia and it doesn’t sound as as interesting as it actually is. But

it’s actually that’s Vegas kind of thing that

it sounds like a club in Vegas. Welcome to bed. spermy

radies night

So panspermia, the idea panspermia is the building blocks of life, the nucleic acids of proteins that started the cellular development in life must have come from outer space must have come from meteorites that crash into the earth because you can find nucleic acids and amino acids on samples of meteorites that have crashed into the earth. So the thinking is that where did this like seed for cellular lives come from? And it came during the time when the earth was bombarded with all of these meteorites, right. And so they did a study to see if there are any microbes that exists on earth today, that could have survived interstellar travel on a meteorite from say somewhere like Mars, and they did a study and they found that these spores, the very ones that we work with, could survive six years in interstellar travel, and actually re enter on a meteorite and be some of the foundations of cellular life on earth. And so this is a published study showing so the spores that we’re working with could have been the origin of life. On Earth. It’s not it’s an outlandish, you would think that, you know, so it’s so fascinating that they’ve been here, way longer than we have. We saw that in the evidence of the spores in that in the honeybee, you know, that are that are 250 million years old, they found spores in a cave in Southern California, in salt crystals that they could melt out of the salt crystals and still grow them. And they were over 50 million years old, and they’re still alive. They’ve been here since the beginning. And you know, our idea is that we’ve been swallowing them inadvertently as humans being in this desert because they’re everywhere, that they’re ubiquitous. And then some of them develop this evolutionary mechanism of being able to survive through the gastric system, and then actually start orchestrating the ecology in us, which for a long time looked a lot like the ecology in the soil, but it does there is resonance between the ecology in the soil ecology in the gut. And that’s part of why our world is so toxic Because our soil is dead, and so our food is dead and our God is dead, right I cut is dying at least. And so these are the orchestrators in the environment that became the orchestrators and I got and it said through years and years of coevolution, they figured out what part of the got to spoil it in which part of these formulating which part to interact with what part of our immune system, and then of course, they orchestrate the rest of the population of the microbiome.

This is nuts. I had never heard about this or never thought about it like this, but you’re exactly right. Whoever the Creator is, yeah. So all of a sudden, these meteors and I’ve got these guys that are going to survive all the way there. Let them help you out. And all we’re doing is just spraying ship.

Yeah, get rid of them. Totally. Yeah. And that’s what I say. We’re our microbial construct put in an anti microbial world. So no doubt we have a significant amount of chronic disease, right? It’s it’s not it’s not unthinkable when you go well, 3040 years ago, we only had what 2530 autoimmune diseases now we have over 100 and So we’ve created diseases for ourselves to deal with over the last 2530 years. And so much of that can really be rationally tracked back to the idea that we continue to use more and more anti microbial systems, whether it’s on our crops, in our water, in our homes, in our food, and so on.

In your studies, have you seen that when somebody is on megaspore, that you’ve now determined that they come in, they can survive the upper small bow, they go into that vegetative state, they go back to spore, then the you know, into vegetative state, then they come out and then their sport ends and then populate the soil, whatever it is, it’s there. Have you seen an increase in the proliferation as it comes through? In other words, can they

can they duplicate while they’re in this environment? Can we produce more of these

in our pockets? in our gut? They do. Yeah. Yeah, they do. Now, what’s interesting about that is we did some systems or we’re trying to overload the gut with spores to figure out can they get to because we have people that ask as well if you take the same Five change every day, don’t you create some sort of monoculture or something like that? And we said, well, we don’t think you would, because this is almost natural levels of exposure that you’re supposed to get from the soil. And so we wouldn’t have this diverse microbiome if if that actually would happen. And so we did testing where we were trying to overload a microbiome with the spores. And we found that they reach a certain threshold level of themselves within the gut, and they don’t allow themselves to each other and they keep it in check. These

are smart, smart, little critters. Totally.

Yeah, we are smarter than we are because they know more about our gut than we do, right? We can’t look in our gut and go, our gut is off, because we don’t know what a healthy microbiome is supposed to look like. But they can go in there and go, yeah, this does not right, and tinker around with things and fix things. You know, and because of that, we the first published study we did was on leaky gut, right? We we’ve had this this idea that leaky gut is really a result of dysbiosis a dysfunction in the bacterial population. And so with our thinking that the spores Go in there and fix the dysfunction, it should be able to resolve leaky gut. And sure enough, we have I think the only published study on a probiotic that shows it can resolve leaky gut in as little as 30 days. Wow, totally sealed up the tight junctions, no more toxins leaking through into the circulation. And then all of the inflammatory cytokines that we looked at all came down significantly in that 30 days. I

kind of want to highlight that because there’s well over 3300 studies specifically to talk about permeability in the gut. Yeah, and the thing that really drew kin and I to what you are doing with megaspore Yeah. Is that research right there? Yeah, there’s nobody else with a probiotic, regardless of delivery system does anything like what mega sport does? Yeah. And nobody’s been able to demonstrate that

the same thing. Yeah, absolutely. And, and we were super excited about it. Because when we when we prove that then with leaky gut, and we know that leaky gut drives so many other chronic illnesses, we said, okay, if we can resolve leaky gut with the probiotic, then we should be able to fix other things that That our result of leaky gut. So since then we’ve done a triglyceride study elevated triglyceride. We this study is going through peer review right now, hopefully it’ll be published in the next couple of months. But we saw about a 40 to 45% reduction in elevated triglycerides in a 90 day period. Compare that to like a prescription like a stat and brings down triglycerides, maybe 15%. At best, you know, and then of course, all these side effects, even the prescription fish oil, which is a good thing to take, but the prescription fish oil brings down triglycerides by 25%. At best, this is over 40%. We saw we just completed a study on acting, because we know if you have leaky gut, you’re going to have inflamed skin. We saw a 40% reduction in acne lesion counts in 30 days and compare that to the prescription antibiotic that use Accutane. It takes them 90 days to achieve that with all of the side effects that you get from taking the antibiotics and

so yeah, so we have seen all kinds of stuff also when we treat people with otra until It’s shocking how many people come up and say, Oh, my rosacea cleared up. Other non gut issues get better. And it makes sense because it’s just inflammatory cytokines floating around. Yeah.

And the gut is a biggest source of chronic low grade inflammation. And we know chronic low grade inflammation is the biggest driver of chronic disease. You know, the American diabetic association is doing a whole bunch of studies on endotoxemia, which is a kind of leaky gut that we study. And they have at least 15 published studies showing that endotoxemia is the primary cause of the onset of diabetes. In fact, there’s a study that just published earlier this year called a cardio prep study, and it was 462 patients. And these are all patients that have high risk factors for developing type two diabetes. So they’re obese, the history of heart disease, all that stuff, and they follow these patients over 60 months, and they measured all different types of cytokines and inflammatory markers and all that to try to figure out which one of those things were the best part. predictors of the development of type two diabetes, what they showed was leaky gut, and the leaking in of an endotoxin called LPs was the only marker that could predict diabetes, triglycerides and inflammatory markers, you know, interleukin six, all of that stuff, CRP, none of that stuff correlated 100%. The only thing was the leakiness in the gut and the migration of the endotoxin. And so they even recommended that physicians use that endotoxin as a as a predictor of diabetes risk. So everything else didn’t matter as much as that endotoxin.

So we talked about a study that was done at TCU. And a couple shows ago where they actually looked at people and they induced Yeah, basically inflammation by injecting LPs Yes. And then monitoring them and what they found is that the people in the study, the it was, To their surprise, when you talked about the bacteria and social and all this, they showed lack of impulse control among Emotional lability. And they were very surprised about that. And then they actually said that there was a tendency towards addiction, because the inflammatory process actually caused some neuro inflammation.

Yeah, yeah. And in fact, there’s evidence that shows that LPs from the gut leaks through can end up in the brain and actually interfere with dopamine binding in dopamine receptors.

Oh, that’s fascinating. I’m not seeing that.

Yeah. And so you even though your body’s releasing dopamine, you’re not binding dopamine. So then you’re looking for a dopamine fix, and you get into addictive behavior because most addictive behaviors are driven by a dopamine fix, you know, a need for dopamine. That’s exactly yeah, yeah. So you’re interfering with the dopamine binding from this leakiness in your gut,

you know, something I wanted to bring up one of the happiest animals I’ve ever met the probably this really high dopamine is a camel

you know, yeah. We need to get to

I want to hear about the camel.

camel done. The story is fascinating. So in during World War Two, the German army had part of their campaign was in North Africa. And this is super well documented was documented by pharmaceutical company started in Germany. And what they saw was that most of the the German soldiers were dying of dysentery. And what they noticed was the locals when they would get gut infections or dysentery, the what they would do to stop it was they would find Dr. Campbell dung and they would consume the camel down and eating the camel dung would stop the dysentery. So they took a bunch of the camel dung back to Germany, then you’re trying to figure out what was in the camel done that actually stop the gut infection. And they found Bacillus subtilis spores, which is the same spore that we work with. And so they launched that as a prescription drug in 1952. To treat dysentery from the camel dung use in North Africa. You know, and that was the first time that the spores were used in the medical world. And but they’ve been using it in in North Africa and other parts of the Savannah for literally thousands of years to treat gut infections, you know, in the end, so and it’s also fascinating. The NIH recently published a study last year, you know, we know that we’re reaching this poster animatic world, right mersa is a big issue. Yeah. So methicillin resistant staph. They did a big I think was a 500 patient study in Thailand, Southeast Asia, they sampled a whole bunch of people. And they were looking for the prevalence rate of mersa. colonization and people in different body sites on the skin and the oral cavity and so on. What they found was that there was a really high prevalence rate of colonization by methicillin resistant staph, which is a very scary bacteria. If it starts to infect, it becomes a major problem. It was like somewhere around 35 or 40% of people had colonization by mersa. But here’s the thing that was interesting. When they looked at the people that did not have any Mercer colonization, they were trying to look at their entire microbiome, the entire ecological ecological setup of their body. The only difference they could find between people that had Mercer colonization and did not have it was that the people that did not have it had high levels of Bacillus subtilis spores in their system.

And so they could actually see that they could actually see the spores.

They could see this more as they could culture the spores, so they could see that the spores were protecting these people against Mercer colonization. That’s how much they afford us the protection and and they’ve been here for millions of years, we just have to be smart enough to put it back in our system.

This is gonna be really cool because we’re launching these subscription box here the Jihad subscription box. And we’re teaming up.

Absolutely, I’ll try to

megaspore we got a we got one minute left, because this is really one of the best deep dive scientific discussions we’ve had so far on gut check. So real quick, can grond talk a little bit about the partnership between neutron teal megaspore. And why? I mean, honestly, why we’re excited to be able to so I’ll tell

you how, how I actually heard about you first, it’s because I

had all these functional medicine doctors go you need to meet this brilliant guy who I think has something that can actually augment your product. Totally. Yeah. And that’s when you and Eric got in touch and I’m so glad that we didn’t very clearly you know your shit. So

I’m glad that we’re back.

No camels? It turns out No, absolutely. It’s a it’s a great partnership because what you guys have developed with on truck tail, and the what that does in the body is so complementary to what the spores do. In fact, I bet that both products would enhance each other’s effect. That’s my complimentary, yes, you know, and when when when we’ve seen that with other things like prebiotics or polyphenols, we see an enhanced impact. So I think the two products in combination will be a true symbiotic, which is where one one product would dramatically enhance the effect of the other. So I’m totally excited for this partnership. Because I think if we’re, if both of us are independently fixing guts now, yeah, when we combine it, we’re going to be really fixing some guts across the board. So

this is fascinating. This is our first roadshow. Kiran Do you will always be the first person ever did a lot of the roadshow yes gut check project, man. So we’re down here in San Antonio with the IFM What is it called the AI See I Can you remember annual International combo? Yes. Yeah. So we’re down here talking to a lot of functional medicine, functional medicine practitioners, MDS deos, nurse practitioners, etc. It’s an incredible conference. Yeah, I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to carve out and Maria.

Can any parting words I just love to nerd out once a while. That is awesome. You match. Thank you.

If you missed anything, you need to go back to how Campbell Joe was the first fecal transplant. That’s the all, until next time…