#7 Wade McKenna, DO – Stem Cell Expert, Inventor, & Orthopedic Surgeon

Alright, we are here with the gut check project. This is episode number seven. I’m Eric Rieger here with your host, Dr. Ken brown, brown. What’s going on today? Good morning. Good morning. How are you doing? I am doing well. How are you doing this morning?

Well, let me tell you what I am on day number four of the fasting mimicking diet. How about you?

I am also on day four of the fasting mimicking diet

made by prolon made by prolon so I want to do a shout out to Dr. Joe Atoun the CEO prolon and Dr. valter Longo who wrote the longevity diet. They sent us some prolon kits and we’re giving it a shot the fasting mimicking diet they are it is the fasting mimicking diet. So I am comparing it to a previous experience of doing a water fast it’s very interesting. This is far more tolerable, quite honestly. And just as Morning I did check ketone levels. I was at 2.2 point one day three you’re supposed to start doing it so by is this day goes on you’ll probably start kicking up a whole lot more.

Yeah, so I found that to be beneficial and certainly falling in line with what you want at did comparing this to a water fast at this point I was I was gonna be you know for being in three nap days I felt like I was really ready to start eating the bad day for that was enough for me. I did. I did four full days of the water fast but with prologue I feel I actually feel really really good at it’s not too bad and it’s nice the way they kind of portioned out every day’s meals what we’re going to be eating so my wife’s doing with us also the only hard part was that earlier this earlier this week, I had to cook dinner for the boys because they still got to eat. And man we had some nice juicy steaks just sitting there and you can’t have any of it. I couldn’t do anything with it. It was not the box. How about yourself? How was yours?

Well, I’m you know, I’m doing well. This is my birthday. five day fast, I guess a little over a year so I’m trying to do them every few months right first one I did pro lon which was not a big deal at all. Second one, I did kind of my own little fasting, mimicking, mimicking style and I didn’t have that. What I’m going to call that burst of energy, right? Or possibly it was stimulation of stem cells. Let’s get into that in in a few minutes here. And then I did a water fast only my ketones went through the roof, but I was quite miserable. So we’re back to the prologue given this a shot and we’ll talk about that in a second. But I mentioned the stem cells today’s guest Wow, this is going to be if you know anybody that has autoimmune disease. If you know anybody that has back pain, anybody has joint pain. Tune in because we have a stem cell expert, Dr. Wade McKenna, orthopedic surgeon. This guy is a badass in this field. And we were sitting there talking just outside I’m like, holy cow. I’m just gonna sit here and take notes. It’s like we brought in a professor of stem cells. He’s He’s pretty amazing. You know, he he actually played football at Oklahoma State. Went to med school. I performed anesthesia with him several years ago whenever he was still heavily just as he is today doing orthopedics, he’s fantastic surgeon. All of this has led to somebody who’s actually kind of reminds me you he never wants to stop learning. And so it’s it’s led to where he is where he is today. And he is, I would say quite the expert with stem cells and where the future is going with him. So this is so exciting that we actually timed our fast for this episode because you know, people throw around the word stem cell A whole lot. And much like the CBD industry, people throw it around. There’s lots of misinformation. There’s lots of quality differences, the people that are actually giving stem cells, there’s lots of differences with that. So we’re going to clarify all of it. I really feel like there’s some parallels You and I have brought in several CBD experts, right? And there’s some parallels here. And so you know, this is a super exciting for that. anything going on with the family anything going on socially?

Well, this last week, whenever Marie moved into Preparing to do the fast. I would say that the boys have have enjoyed teasing us and other than that they’ve they thought back into offseason basketball quite busy and just kind of everyday as usual with around around our household.

Typical tennis weekend, both Lucas and karla were playing tennis. And they both did really well. It was kind of a little curveball, though. I’m really proud of my team because as we’re going to be launching the D hat health box. Dr. Lisa Alvarez actually did a little commercial for us. She did so yeah, and so I get a chance to pop into the set see it and then move on this can be excited to see when that happens. I appreciate her taking her time to do that. So another kind of cool thing. I just got a phone with Dr. Chang, from Houston. Yeah. Great guy.
Fantastic functional medicine doctor. He actually has ties with prologue him and him and Joseph are friends. Okay. It’s gonna be having a huge conference. Coming up on April 27, where he’s going to talk about brain gut issues. We’re going to have him on the show because he’s got some incredible stuff on brainwaves and its effect pre and post trauma. And its effect pre and post diet change and using hemp derived products. So, super cool. I just got the phone with him. So if you get a chance to go to his Facebook page, he’s got a lot of really cool information. So awesome. I think we’re kind of moving in all these unique directions, right? But what’s the big deal with stem cells? Why do we want to talk about it?

I think that it’s it’s the new It’s the new frontier, it’s no different than the way that we’ve been spending time talking about CBD. Why, why just a few years ago, the revelation that you had into polyphenols and what it could do, these are it’s a lot of what nature’s giving us to work with. And it’s kind of amazing that it’s it’s all coming to fruition nowadays. And you hit on it a little bit earlier and I know that the doctor McKenna is going to address it as well the FDA it many times We want this government entity to be on our side and helping us out can really be stymieing a lot of the the progress that many of the citizens could be enjoying that they could be taking part in to have a better quality of life and in a really odd yet, when you get down to money, reason you find out that the FDA is is hard to budge out of the way in terms of progress. Well, it’s so

interesting because what he was talking about is exactly what I’ve been doing. So in in all fields of medicine, it’s very hard to change the direction of this large Titanic like ship where people are doing things. And we have either many ways as he as he described it to skin a cat or really none of them are really working very well. Sure. And then when you find something it’s hard to get people to pay attention to you, much like are trying to write. I mean when we sit there when we came out without trying to we know that Mojo and 5.0 guys are talking. They’re really trying to tell everybody about the bloating effects with it. But we know that Trump is made up of polyphenols and We know those polyphenols are really good for you. They actually are the anti aging and anti inflammatory molecules in the Mediterranean diet. So we need to expand that message a little bit more right? Oh people Hey, you can take these polyphenols which are in our Tron teal. And they can actually do some of the things that that that stem cells do and we’re going to talk about this and some science but if you’re curious about that, if you’re looking at otra until Is there any place that you go where they should go to love my tummy calm forward slash spoonie that’s love my tummy calm forward slash spoonie and then use the code spinny and save a little cash and while you pick up your own polythene also be delivered right to your home and then keep listening to this because you’re going to realize that these there’s lots of overlap. Chang Ron’s gonna be doing a brain gut thing or he shows that you need to protect your gut are trying to helps with that. We got Wade McKenna here talking about stem cells. The body wants to rejuvenate itself. You need to give it the things that it can. This is going to be so exciting. We’re going to really geek out today. I mean, or at least I want to definitely and I want Everybody hang in there because what you’re going to learn is literally some of the most cutting edge stuff.

You remember. Do you remember when stem cells first started making the circuit in the news. And it’s really odd the way that people began to report new science and health, sometimes it can be this is the greatest thing ever, or it can be a lot of scare tactics. And I remember the first time I heard about stem cells, it was unfortunate being taken from unborn babies, etc. But that’s that’s not what’s happening at all. And then you begin to get past that layer. Well, guess what? It’s just like anything else, you get past the first layer. And then you find out there’s a whole new world to discover. And in terms of what Dr. McKenna is going to talk about, we have lawmakers here in the US that prohibit certain certain lines of stem cells being used, but they are still going incredibly beneficial. And some of the culturing or the growth of those stem cells into what the US would would determine to be tissues. They couldn’t do it here, but they could do it in Panama and oddly enough, who found His work in Panama was a couple of lawmakers really kind of really kind of weird and ironic that the same people that are part of that institution that doesn’t allow us to do certain things will go out of the country to get that kind of help.

I think it’s such a small world and its fate and whatever it is, I mean, I think a lot of things that have happened in both our lives have been opportunities that we’ve taken advantage of, and I remember you and I were working one day, and I was like, dude, did you see that Joe Rogan, where he had Mel Gibson on? And some other guy, some PhD, and he went, yeah, I know those guys. Yeah. And I was like, laughing because Mel Gibson said the same thing. A lot of people think he’s like, Ah, you think about stem cells, you can have a mouth going up the side of your face. And now, it’s not at all. As it turns out, he took his dad down to Panama, and his 92 year old dad and he got better. And that’s when I was like, Whoa, and you started saying, I mean, this is a long time ago, over a year and a half ago, man, you’re going to meet my buddy Wade, because he’s doing a lot of the same thing,
same parallel paths in the sense that he’s really scientific. And it’s just trying to get people better. That’s it.

Now you’re right on and just think about that. So that being at least 18 months ago, I believe that Mel’s dad was started going down there maybe five years ago. Think of the advances in the tech and the technologies that have come along with stem cell research since then that’s exactly why we are Dr. Ray McKinnon is here to tell us a little bit more about where it’s going, how they’re going to measure what is authentic stem cell injection what is the right protocol, what you’d be looking for? Who are the imposters? there’s a there’s a lot of information out there it’s no different than learning about CBD and where to go get the right kind of CBD if it’s harvested the right way produced the right way.

I just think it’s interesting because I went to a doctor friend of mine, Dr. Marlin dia, and we were in his office and he just started talking about Oh, check this out. I’m now doing stem cell and I was like whoa, we’re going to have a stem cell expert on this week. You got to take a listen he’s yet he’s at Hillcrest medical in University Park area. Okay that kind of thing. super great guy very innovative himself trying new things. Yeah. And you know, he started do that and like, man, small worlds and I’m starting to pay attention to all these other things. So one of the things we like to do is get caught up on everything that, see where see where we’re at. And then I like to geek out a little bit. So how do I tie this all together? How do we tie our fasting together? How do we get stem cells? And how do we come full circle to discuss what’s out there in the literature about what we’re passionate about also?

Right? Well, it’s kind of interesting, because what we’re doing with with diet selection altran to CBD fasting and learning about stem cells, you’re going to find I think, for all of our listeners, as well as us, this is all synergistic. There’s a reason why we’re, we’re taking the mail here with this kind of message.

So using our graduate student that always helps us out. We’ve got some really cool articles tying this all together. And I’m going to end with what I consider really geeky stuff, but I want you to hang in there for me. Okay. So the first question is, you’re on day four of the prologue fast. Why in the world have you been doing that? Well, it has been shown that in cellular metabolism and July 2015. Summarize whenever you go into a fast it promotes stress resistance. So basically when you’re put on a fasting mimicking diet, or I should back up, we’ve always known that the caloric restriction diet has been shown in yeast and other animals to prolong life. valter Longo and his book figured out a way that you can eat a little bit and trick your body into believe that it is completely fasting. That’s what the fasting mimicking diet is. So this study in 2015, looked at putting mice on the fasting mimicking diet. And they demonstrated that these mice decrease the size of multiple organs, improved glucose control, decreased visceral fat, lower blood pressure, improved bone mineral density, rejuvenated the immune system and reduce cancer risk. La it’s too good to be true. Are you kidding me just five days three times a year and you can accomplish this. But wait, there’s more. We got more here. They also showed after they reset the mice. So listen to what this is the coolest thing about this. And when you listen to Walter, give lectures, he said it’s not so much the fast. It’s the recovery from the fast because when they refat them, they showed that an older mice areas of the brain like the hippocampus showed neurogenesis and improved cognitive performance. Wow. Yeah. So it’s pretty wild. So it’s the refeeding. That’s super important. Which makes it fun, because I’m on day four, and I’m really looking through some refeed. Yeah, I can’t wait for some refeeding. But I mean, that’s all part of the process. And I will say, going through my second fast that this is becomes easier. It’s it’s not as hard as the first one. I know some of that’s with problem, but it is, the expectation is there, I know what to expect. I know we’re going for so what would be contributing to better neural thinking? That is the right question. So the question is what’s going on there? So then we dug up an article in the Journal of stem cell research in 2016. What they showed is that fasting protects against immune system damage and induces regeneration By waking up stem cells or by catalyzing dormant stem cells. So all those, what they realize is what this article is describing is what valter was figuring out right there, what he had figured out that it all comes down to stem cells at the refeeding stage. Basically, now that we thrown out stem cells several times, let’s just define what it is real quick. Stem Cells are the body’s raw material. They’re pre cells for all other cells. Stem Cells are the only cells that can generate new cell types. And they can divide into form what are called daughter cells, which becomes specialized cells that eventually becomes specific organs. That’s all I’m going to say about it. Because waiting to come in here and blow our minds and tell us a whole lot more with what stem cells are. So for my all intensive purposes, I’m coming here knowing stem cells can become other cells, right? He’s gonna tell us way more with that. So basically, after you fast and then you refeed you flip a regenerative switch, which promotes stem cell regeneration in the blood making organs. So that’s the potent thing. So when you go into starvation mode, the body will save energy. And one way is to recycle immune cells. And that causes a tautology. so old and sick and dying cells are programmed hate go away, right? And then the energy gets rid of the old sick cells. Then when you refeed, the stem cells wake up, and they go around and there’s a bunch of fallen soldiers, they don’t bother them. But they go around and say, we need new people to replace this over here, simplistic waves and lead into a much cooler explanation of that. And then with each cycle, you refeed you get rid of sick and dying cells and replace them. It’s like a janitor. It’s exactly like a janitor. So five day fast three times a year. You’re just kind of you’re just doing some serious housecleaning. I remember Sachin panda when he talks about that that’s the godfather of circadian rhythm fasting or intermittent fasting,

right? He’s got the mouse models, he still does a prolonged fast because he describes it as you brush your teeth every day. And then, you know, a couple times a year you’re going and you get the deep cleaning from the dentist. And I like that analogy, because you’re always doing maintenance, which is you’re keeping an idea of what you’re eating. But every once while you gotta do that deep clean, definitely, and then trying to fast for the first time, you know, you kind of look at it, you’re like, why would I not want to eat but if you look at the history of time and where people were, and the movement nowadays to return to health, where people are trying to get healthier, and you look at things like paleo effects, for instance, they talk about new diets and ways to eat in a paleo lifestyle. Some of that also includes fasting. And the reason is, the primal man also went a long time without having food for a few days at a time, they would have intermittent fasting or a few days fasting themselves. Yeah. And so basically, you’re just returning to what it is that we’ve all been programmed to do for a long time that it just so happens in the last several generations. We’ve had a ubiquitous amount of food here in the US and so now we it’ll take a

Let’s Okay, so there’s there’s no doubt about it Feat. Eating is awesome, right? But eating is an inflammatory process. So when you eat, you’re going to become inflamed a little bit. And then you incorporate the nutrients. And so with the way that we’re doing and how we’re we eat so much, it’s probably not the healthiest way. So right now we’re in a fast let’s talk about what’s actually going on going on with our bodies before I talk about how
we’re going to tie all this together to stem cells. Okay, so, day one, this is basically the five day fast. This is what’s happened to you and I. So day one, you’re just going to prime your body Day to you start doing some
fat burning. day three, you start doing some cellular recycling. Basically, you’re going to clean up, start realizing Oh, we’re on day three. Now, if we’re back in caveman times, day one, day two, that’s normal. day three, your body starts going, Oh, we better get ready for something because we’re gonna have to go out and get some food soon. Yep. And that’s when you start doing the cleanup and this is when a lot of people will reach ketosis. day for you and i right now we’re in this this is the cell regeneration. This is where a tapa g started yesterday and a tapa G is when those old sick and dying cells are programmed to go away. Much like we talked about with the polyphenols when they get in there and your luthan causes my toffee g right. And the foods that we eat will do that. Then this starts our stem cell based regeneration is starting to ramp up. So when people talk about oh, I
fast I got 24 hours. Oh no, I’ve done a two day fast. We’ve come this far when we’re this far into it. Tomorrow’s what all the real magic happens all the magic. day five regeneration continues now we’ve turned on our stem cells, and the body is being rejuvenated from with it. Now the first time you and I did this did this are fast. I think it was tonight, but this happened to both of us. We both slept what two hours.

Yeah, I even so every time that affects that so far. I feel great whenever I go to bed. And I feel really rested. But the last night of the my fast I basically went to bed. And then I thought I woke up again. It’s like, Man, what a great night’s sleep again. And I looked over the clock and I had been asleep for two hours and 15 minutes. And then I sat around I was like, What am I going to do for the rest of the morning? I’m not tired right now. And then later I learned that was a rexton there was being released telling me I always forget that Oh, rexton oh rexton so it was released from a hormone release from my brain saying, it’s time for you to go and eat and I had an abundant it’s time for you to get up have the energy to go kill the woolly mammoth so that you can eat and you can feel it. I mean, you’re you’re manic and it was time and you saw me ramen. I quit too fast. I mean, I think at the time my blood sugar was at 54. And and I felt fine with that. And ketones, I think for 4.8. Yeah. And the moment that we drew or I did the labs in the end At that point in time, it was time to eat.

Yeah, so both of us had very, very similar experiences. This is the third day that we’ve done this. So now, let me geek out here for the last four minutes. Because this is where I think it comes in really cool. And so we found an article that has a really long title and I just like I like saying it just because I realized that this is the kind of stuff I’m reading, you know, for the show. Treatment of periodontal ligament stem cells with Mr.
And CBD promotes cell survival and neuronal differentiation via the P 13. k, aka t mTOR. pathway. Now that would scare most people off scared me off at first, but our graduate student sent this is a fantastic article and
you’re gonna love it. So basically, what this whole article shows is you can get stem cells from a few places document cannibal explain where bone marrow fat, but one of the places is periodontal ligament. So these are known as mesenchymal stem cells, meaning that they are the least differentiated cells and they can kind of be
Anything. So one of the important things is quality of stem cells. Keep that in mind, because we’re going to talk about that coming up quality of stem cells. So one of the things about stem cells is that there are a lot of different qualities. But once you get the stem cell out, you have to keep the stem cell healthy. So you have to keep it alive and you have to keep it in the best environment possible. So there’s different mediums to do this. This study looked at taking stem cells out in vitro meaning in a dish, and they bathed them in CBD and more Rincon, Mr, which is a pro anthocyanins in riches, a polyphenol which is the same stuff that I try and TEALS made of, so they they bathed them in CBD, and in a polyphenol blend, amazing. Super cool. They did it for 48 hours. And what they showed is that they demonstrated longer survival Les a pop ptosis or programs selda decrease the mTOR
pathway. The mentor pathway is the pathway that makes cells grow. Right? So bodybuilders lots of mentor pathway, but guess what cancer enter pathway also. So it’s a growth pathway, increased differentiation capacity, meaning
they can become more of something quicker. They increase nestin and BDNF, which neurogenesis or new nerves, new brain tissue, right. And then I did a deep dive into the genes that these stem cells turned on. That gets into the cool epigenetic stuff that we talked about before, but basically, I’ll have these genes. So they concluded that in the field of stem cell research, it may be improved by bathing them and CBD and upali phenol mix. So if you’re not getting injected anytime soon, might not be a bad idea to start from the inside, using some CBD and possibly some alternative.

It sounds to me like the recent Just probably on the on the cusp ears are going into that. That’s why they’re bathing them in the present the scientists and the CBD. But it’s weird that just three weeks ago when we had mark on he was talking about his D differentiated, conscious coma, that stem cells that basically were released, and they didn’t know exactly where to go and they begin to proliferate. And he even said, it can be found in in Oregon anywhere in your body, even when you feel like you take him. So it’s critically important that your stem cells are differentiated, that they get to the place that they’re going to be and do what you need them to do. You don’t want them growing out of control. So maybe, possibly we’ll find out in the future that combining a polythene all set with a pro at the cyanogen and a CBD along with stem cell therapy would be a protocol.

I think it’d be awesome to get people started here. Where should they go to get

it all if you go to KBMD health.com and go to the store you can find both Optronics And the new kbmd CbD. Or you can always go to love my tummy com forward slash spoonie. And here in about four minutes, we’re going to be joined by the Dr. Wade McKenna.

So if you know anybody that has joint issues, back issues, knee issues and take it one step further autoimmune disease. There’s so many things that now I’m looking into the science of stem cells, that is going to be super cool. We’re going to geek out and this guy knows his stuff. I am excited. Yeah.

If you had any questions about stem cells, this is where this is the main you need to turn to Dr. Wade McKenna is going to join us here. We’re going to take a break in about 10 seconds and then wrap up now. Just

thank you guys for the prologue. All right. talk to y’all soon.

Okay, we’re back. It’s now the second half hour, episode number seven of the gut check project. We are now joined with Dr. Wade McKenna, Dr. McKenna. Thanks so much for coming in today. Really appreciate it. Absolutely.

So, see what I’m doing here. Yeah, you know, you know, whenever, you know, wherever Rhonda Patrick goes on Joe Rogan, he’s like, I don’t ever want to get your pen and paper out. You’re gonna be taking some notes, just like,

all right. Favorite Joe Rogan comment about Robert Patrick. He says he never feels more like he’s absolutely just a caveman. Then after he talks.

She’s got a lot of knowledge. She’s got a lot of knowledge but so to you. So she do already went through a couple of small things in the last half hour you played football at Oklahoma State. You’ve been orthopedic surgeon for several years, but that’s not really what you’re here to talk. Talk about today.

Well, the cool part is I actually

can you hear I?

Oh, we’re good. We got a little mic problem. We’re going to get something fixed here real quick.

All right, there we go. The cool the cool part for me. Thanks, Ben is kind of been allowed to reinvent myself as a traditional surgeon, when the science kind of caught up to what we do, and figure out that a lot of what we would think of as traditional medical approaches were less than optimal from a patient standpoint. So accident, a fellowship in trauma and post traumatic reconstruction after an orthopedic surgery residency and after a general surgery internship. So in during a general surgery internship when I thought I was going to do transplant surgery because that was the coolest guys at the hospital at the time. We’re just trying to here in Dallas Fort Worth multiple hospitals but DFW medical centers running who with predict residency. I did my fellowship and trauma at Tampa general was was saying there’s a 2000 bed hospital where there was two trauma fellows that kind of ran the program. We had 10 residents and four helicopters and no sleep

we can have a whole new episode on what lack of sleep will do to your stem cells.

Oh yeah, well, it lack of sleep and not healthiest eat. Have you not like lack of sleep induced by fasting where you feel like Superman, lack of sleep and do stuff, you know, falling asleep in the in the lounge chair waiting for the nurse to tap you on the shoulder to say it’s time to you know, go from zero to hero. Yeah. So, but but during the trauma fellowship, we became very adept because we got stuck with a lot of the fractures that other people are treated that didn’t heal. So the post traumatic part of that is acutely we were stabilizing multiple extremity injuries. But we also had to get those people over the multiple extremity injuries and we would get referred a lot of the trauma patients the gentleman trauma is what we call it, which comes to visit you in clinic doesn’t come to you in the middle of night by helicopter.

The gentleman trauma that watching your clinic, he’s like, I’ve got this knife stuck, right? Yeah.

Well, hey, I’ve had five surgeries on my femur fracture and I still can’t walk and there’s still no bonus they’ll have healed and we had to find a way to not only promote tried to trick the body into healing something that already showed it didn’t want to heal. But in the least invasive way possible, kind of turn the table to kind of help the patients generate new bone. The best way to do that early on was bone marrow aspirate concentrate. The very best and first uses of bone Rosberg concentrated in traditional surgery was in the treatment of non unions. When someone has a fractured that doesn’t heal. There’s delayed union, which just means takes forever that but there’s non union, which just means it doesn’t heal, there’s no bone. And if you have a leg that doesn’t have a healed fracture, you can’t walk, you can’t put weight on it. You have an upper extremity with an unhealed fracture, you’re pretty much flail, right, you can’t you have a non non functional extremity bone rash, but concentrate in the treatment protocol. This allowed us to be much less invasive instead of just, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to just take out all the other plates and strip the blood supply to a muscle replay a fracture, further destroying the blood supply to the fracture that already didn’t have enough blood supply to heal.

So let’s go ahead and revisit that really quick because as a orthopedic surgeon, that’s interesting to hear somebody because that’s typically that’s a knee jerk reaction. Oh, that last surgery didn’t work. Let me operate again. That’s exactly so say one more time, what re operating does

well here’s the problem with re operating. If you didn’t Heal the first time. It’s because of the formation of scar tissue, not healed tissue. So the healing gets stopped. The five Brodick tissue begins. scar tissue hurts scar tissue doesn’t have much blood supply. And scar tissue isn’t very functional. It’s five Brodick, it can take up some space. But for the most part, the difference between the interface between the healthy tissue and scar tissue continues to be painful forever every time you move something. So if you have a big fiberoptic not have scar with an attendant, and you have some healthy tissue that generate that connects to it. The mismatch and playability that mismatch of you would never use metals that have different hardness when you’re putting together an engine, right because the soft metal and the hard metal cause fretting and corrosion and significant problems and metal mismatch. Soft tissue mismatch is just as big a problem. We create scar tissue and people that hurts generates pain generates an inflamed Tori response or a chronic inflammatory response from sidechains, that without decent blood supply to a scar tissue your body can’t get rid of. So you end up with long term and continued muscle that and a lot of our surgery approaches and a lot of surgery where you would just strip off the blood supply to the bone that it needs to help heal don’t work very well, because we’re not focused on how the body needs to be able to heal this fracture. We’re focused on making an X ray look pretty. And Whoo,

did you hear that? I did, just to make it look nice. So I mean, you’re I think it’s fascinating because essentially, I’ve done the same. I’ve done the same thing in my practice. Rob kind of moved from traditional gastroenterology you’re become almost a functional orthopedist.

Yeah, I mean, I would like to think that that I, I just come to the table with some of the extra tools that I need to kind of set the table for the patient to help them heal right. The the body has a unique ability to overcome a lot of things and, and our body actually wants to heal. A lot of times I’m just trying to help people get out of their own way. The same way the gastroenterology diet, you’re trying to help people get out of their own way from being in bad health, right? With orthopedics, I have to help the body the body knows the triggers and the mechanisms and has the intact growth factors to help your body heal. As we get a little older as we have chronic injury UV light radiation, cigarettes, coffee, alcohol, late nights cortisol stress, we impair our body’s ability to respond appropriately to injuries. What the stem cell does for you is that’s the cell that helps you respond to injury. The problem is as you get a little older, you have less of them, and they don’t do as much as they used to do

I want to get to that in a second. I’m still I want to hear the history. I want to hear your path because you ended with during residency. We started Death do bone marrow concentrate, bone marrow aspirate concentrate

for non union, non Union for

worse people so you guys were willing to try some things that other people weren’t?

Well, we had the opportunity because these people had no other options. Right. So the best part about doing a trauma fellowship is we were there. last hope we were the the Island of Misfit Toys so to speak, or

Island of Misfit Toys.

Oh, we used to we used to, you know, especially around Christmas time when that movie comes out with Kris Kringle, we would literally collect the injured patients from all over South Florida, South North Florida, Alabama, Georgia, we were the only level one trauma center on the west coast of Florida. And so when people would fail multiple surgeries we they’d walk into the resident clinic and you had to come up with a way to solve their problem. And a lot of times it was as easy as finding a way to put more stress on the fracture. know they’d have some plate that was played it in distraction. So a lot of times it was just taking some screws out sometimes it was loosening up a frame that was holding the fracture apart and didn’t let the fracture heal we would compress the frame so that the piece of electric effect you know fractures need stress to generate bone So, stress across bone generates electro negative charge calcium and phosphorus are positively charged the biomechanics of basic physiology which unfortunately surgeons, I don’t know when we’re supposed to forget that but but apparently we do. It’s trained out of us is what I always tell the resonance when they’re with us is don’t let Don’t let basic science and physiology be trained out of you into a surgical approach but when you create electro negative charged from a compression is to fracture. Calcium goes in and you can get some healing but without blood supply. there’s a there’s a rule in and I’m an osteopathic physician so I went to do medical school and Because our team doctor coma state was do and and getting manipulated felt good and I wouldn’t know how to do that. And I didn’t even know there was a difference. I knew I wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. I said, Can I be an orthopedic surgeon? If I was do and he said absolutely. That’s about how I made that decision. Oklahoma State had to do medical school. Oh, US was MD. The last thing the world I wanted was a red diploma. Oil, so I got accepted. mistake. No, yeah, that was an easy decision. I didn’t even know what a deal was. But one of the deals at the time gave me a book called The difference do Max and you’re trying to teach me about the school I just decided to go to and they said that on when it comes to healing, that the rule of the arturia supreme

rule of the

rule, the rule of the artery is supreme, but lymphatics have veto power right? Ever heard this? So that was the it’s the foundation of at still creation. Oh, so you know, osteopathic medicine was created by an MD, right? He still is an MD he started the first do medical school in Kansas. But he did it because he was unhappy with traditional medical approaches. mobilization the joint instead of letting it get all swollen up seemed to make the patient’s functional a little bit better, right and actually cured the flag by creating what’s called a lymphatic pump, people would read out all the way he would push down on their chest, and then he would let up and would create open up the alveoli and he could get people over dramatic pulmonary infusions by creating this thing called a lymphatic pump and it would get side of my column icons out of the lung tissue. Well, with what we’re doing, it literally goes back to the foundations of what created a lot of modern medical sciences that without blood supply, there’s no healing right. And that’s true for orthopedic fractures. It’s true for muscles tendon injuries. When we first started doing bomer go back to that point on the trauma surgeon. We weren’t real sure that if we put bone marrow into a tendon that it wouldn’t make bomb. I mean, that was our fear. We thought we thought when we took bomer aspirin concentrate. We were real careful to make sure we we kept it in the in the osseous Mart of the

President on animals yet are you? Oh, yeah,

in matter of fact, there was there’s some really good studies published on bone marrow going back to the to the mid 90s. There was a there was a there was actually a really great study, but here’s how little they knew about what we were doing. Israel 1520 years ago, there was a study on product complex proximal tibia fractures, which is a disaster if you have a tibia plateau, the base your knee if it’s a complex fracture more than what parts called shaft or six, right? So shatters fracture. So if you have a Schatz, your six, we used to call it FUBAR, right

that was our classic

So, we we, with the shastra. Six, what they did in Israel is they treated half of them with bomer aspart concentrate, and half of them which is plating and without boomerangs were concentrated. But interestingly because it was so early, they added PRP to the boomer aspirin concentrate, thinking that it made it work better. And really all they did is dilute it down. So PRP, the machine that I helped develop the arterial site, hold on

one second. define what PR Okay, so

the machine that we work with a machine that I’ve been working with for for quite a while and have actually helped, hopefully, without me not taking real credit for anything but but knowing that that I’ve been a significant part of the innovation of the development of their kit, right? I mean, I actually patented the bone rosboroughs catheter the catheter that comes in that kit is my my design. PRP is when you take whole blood and Spin it down in the machine to concentrate the growth factors and get rid of some of the white sauce. And so you create what’s called platelet rich plasma. Right? And platelet rich plasma is generated from the centrifugation of whole blood into the growth factors and platelets that are needed to help get rid of inflammatory change. A lot of times getting rid of the inflammatory change is the way to start the healing cycle. Inflammation gets in the way, you got to put out the fire before you can grow new grass, right. And so with inflammatory change, if you turn the inflammation off ligamentous tissue tendons heal faster with bomer aspart concentrate. What wasn’t really understood as well in the 90s, early 2000s that it is now hopefully, is that bone marrow is still 97% whole lot. Right? So when we spend down bone marrow, you’re getting played in rich plasma.

So you’re you’re actually doing PRP.

Yeah You’re doing PRP with themselves yeah so bone Rashbrook concentrate has the stem cells needed to help you heal and we know that those stem cells because when when I don’t know how old you are, but while I was in school there wasn’t such a thing as a musical stem cell okay music was stem cell was named the music was stem cell in 1995 by a doctor named Arnie Kaplan. Case Western and Arnie Kaplan named a cell that previously in medicine what we do is we named cells based on the characteristics right so before it was it was equal stem cell wasn’t a plastic undifferentiated puri potential adherence. So

yeah, I liked it. Way better back in that day. Yeah, I think they got way too, way too uppity by calling the mesenchymal stem cell school baby well,

and not only that, but there’s when people use the term is equal stem cell most time I don’t even know what they’re talking about. Right. So there’s a CD marker, a surface cell marker, there’s 600 different types of the cells based on their Surface marker. So we talked about mizenko stem cells, people think there’s like one time know, there’s some of them that we don’t really need to help you heal. There’s some of them that we need crucially to help you heal. And we know the difference between these based on their CD marker. So we’ve actually quantitated what cells we want, what cells we don’t want and found a way to concentrate the cells we want when we do the spends. So with bone marrow, you’re getting platelet rich plasma, but you’re getting the best player rich plasma because you’re spinning it from the most immature blood when you spend on hole but you’re getting PRP, but you’re getting none, no stem cells.

So let’s clarify because this is

it’s a definition.

That’s brilliant, but what you’re saying is that saying just stem cells doesn’t mean just stem cells, stem cells when we have these mesenchymal stem cells, which is the earliest of the stem cell, correct, right. Then you guys have markers where you can determine the type of one that you know which ones do you need?

What wants preference only help you grow cartilage? What was preferencing tendon. But once preference Lee grow fat, right? So fat stem cells that if you make if you make fat graph, or a stem cell graph from fat that those cells grow fat really well. Yeah. Well, you know what, they don’t grow really well as cartilage because there’s a peptide called Sachs nine, that’s not secreted by the fast stem cell, right? So when we quantitate stem cells, I’m not interested in what those cells could become. I’m going to say right now, because this is my pet peeve. If you go to a stem cell lecture, and the first slide they show is this one cell can become these five types of cells, and the differentiation and the ability of the cells become these five is what makes it so magic. That’s completely wrong. Right? That’s true in the lab. That’s not how it works in the body. What happens in the body is your cell your body sees an injury. It secrete cells starting with the hematopoietic stem cell, which is the cd 34 right? So cd 34

hold on one second. I’ve got I’ve been messaged where it says okay, I’m get a little stressed out. I think Feel like I’m producing the wrong stem cells because I’m putting on weight. How do I change mine? How do I change my stem cells to get rid of the adipose tissue? Yeah. And then somebody else just sit there just go. I got lost at CD something.

Yeah, yes. Yeah. So you were way more scientific than I thought I would be as an orthopedist. I thought I’d come in bump me make straight

resident or actually when I was in medical school, the running joke at the time, orthopedics was the hardest residency to get into. Yeah,

but you had to become stupid right away.

By the time we were residents, the attendings would just be like, how do we take the smartest guys?

We need to we need to unlearn that’s why I talk about when I made I mean it when I say don’t unlearn medicine, right, you get the orthopedic resident it was the hardest residency get to, but you were expected to never even look at an EKG again, right? If you walked into a surgery patient and you’re like looking at their head or their EKG the attendees are walking ago. What the hell are you doing

now? It’s I think I think I actually talked about this is Eric Yeah, who you split those people to sleep. Well, you have a surgeon going, can I cut? You’re like, no, yeah, he’s dying,

right. Interestingly, Eric used to put my patients to sleep.

So you would sit down and just be like Dr. McKenna or the CD six and seven is April stels. Ready? Well,

there’s a joke. That was how do you find the orthopedist or the radiologist? They’re going the opposite direction at the Code Blue.

They’re running away from the scene. Yeah. We used to say you know, if you want if you have $1 and you want to hide it from a surgeon, or from any kind of position, there’s different places you have to put it right. If you want to hide it from radiologists, you tape it to a patient. If you want to hide it, if you want to hide it from an orthopedic surgeon, you put it in a book. If you want to hide it from a plastic surgeon, well, you can’t hide $1 from plastic surgery.

You’re gonna down a rabbit hole there.

We’re at 34. What we were talking about is the initiation of healing right? So with a cd 34 it secretes a peptide called PG to PG two is is one of those keys and starting new vessel growth. Well, the way to grow hair the way to have Ed go away the way to have stress urinary incontinence go away. The way to have your wrinkles go away. The way to have your fracture heal the way to have your tendon remote. You

had me at wrinkles, Ed hair.

Okay, so So now so we started out, I’m treating non union fractures, right? Well, we figured out pretty quick that if you put bomer asper concentrate, it was it wasn’t and there’s a great study published. It was a limb salvage patient in Japan where 15 surgeries big proximal defect at the proximal tibia and the the general surgeon was was livid at the orthopedic surgeons want to put bone Rosberg concentrate in the fracture because he was proving that there was no vascular To the leg. So to backdoor the orthopedic surgeon This is published as a case report. The vascular surgeon does this arterial, my lower extremity and it shows that there’s literally no collateral flow around this fracture site. This kid basically has a limb salvage frame on his leg with this big proximal defect two years out multiple fashi atomies non usable leg mask or really high needs needs amputation. orthopedic surgeon is have seen all the stuff on bomer asper concentrate wants to inject bone marrow before he takes his frame off. Eventually, as a surgeon, you become kind of emotionally connected to you to your work, right. The guy does not want to cut this leg off. The vascular surgeons trying to prove it needs come off. He doesn’t have a family still don’t want to let cut off. So they have bone marrow injected in the fracture site. At eight weeks. They redo the arteria because the orthopedic surgeon that arteaga was it ordered by him, but you’re starting to see new bond kids having less pain, he’s putting weight on leg, you’re getting new bone formation but they have arteria gamson out there the show’s no blood flow. So the redo the arteria Graham and there’s all this collateral circulation around the fracture

alright so basically for everybody listening are to Graham is a study where it actually shows the arteries

you put dye in a vessel and it shows up on X ray

and there is no blood flow going below where the fracture was

there’s no dye the dye stops and there’s this little bit of pattern this little trickle dynamic

was injected something into the bone

not into the are not into that artery into the periosteum sleeve the covering of the bone where the where the where there was no bone where there was this big bony defect there but bomer asper concentrate in there. The way the bummer asper concentrate word it didn’t become bone, which is what we thought. What it does is it secretes the peptides and proteins necessary to bring new blood flow which allowed the bone to heal. Now there’s the star telegram setting out there that shows no collateral flow. Say that

saying again that blood flow,

the rule of the artery is supreme.

The rule of the otter is supreme he still

I’ll give him credit for that from the 1800s Rule the arteries supreme lymphatics have veto power. And that’s a Dr. Graham from Oklahoma state’s manipulation class kind of add on there that if everything so swollen and blood flow can’t get to it, it can’t hit.

Yeah. So you guys injected this. This is the first time you saw that vulner aspect because this is gonna be a great segue. Yeah, when we go to the next half hour where we really do jump into the stem cells, we’ve got a will will try and keep it is it at a level that we can help people because I’m getting a

lot I’ll go back to the bone that may make strength.

Like I’m being asked questions like, does it help with back can Yes, because it helps her bone and so we’re gonna get to that next hour.

But a great papers published right everyone that says, oh, there’s no literature published. Again. There’s been 3500 papers published with my little catheter and the kit we designed for bomer aspirin. 3500 papers published there’s never been an untoward report. There’s never been a tumor. There’s never been that you can’t reject your own bone marrow. So this

is the bone marrow aspirate injections. You guys are doing this. The very beginning of stems very, it’s the

only cell in the US you’re allowed to call a stem cell. Wow, you cannot.

So you guys really you guys literally were the first people playing around with stem cells,

the trauma surgeon department pulling bone marrow. Yeah, no not knowing what we were doing. We were using bomer aspart concentrate for the fatty component of marrow that seemed to help fractures heal faster, which is where microfracture surgery the knee. All this comes in my mind from we would we’re doing the scope, there’s an uncovered cartilage area, we poke a couple holes in the bone marrow in the bone to let some bone marrow leak into the knee thinking that that helped the cartilage lesion heels cut a microfracture. Now it doesn’t work very well. It creates a cartilaginous cap. It’s not good cartilage, but it does heal something. But my thought was when I created this catheter, if a couple drops of bone marrow makes a difference. What would what would 60 cc’s concentrated down to four or five day that was where we started with this. Doing general powers injuries. That’s where that’s where that’s a little beginning. That’s, that’s what we need for me. Yeah.

Do you think or do you think that it’s bone marrow and the stem cells that come from bone marrow are really adapt to this type of healing simply because that’s where we release our red blood cells.

Now your body does it. Yeah. Okay, so this is how your body heals already. Right? Right, that we’re not, we’re not inventing a new way to make something heal. This is how the body heals. This is where those you know, this how God does it, right he sends the cell there is secretes this protein vessel grows, you get new budget by 10 and grows right. This is how it works already. It’s just as we get older, or if you get your lymph edema, swelling, I’ll limp at the lymphatic flow we’re talking about has veto power is a big swollen leg. If you have a big swollen foot. Good, both can’t get to it. Right. So it’s all about mobilizing an ankle fracture and all this so that blood flow can get to it because if it’s real swollen, you can’t put any extra water in a full glass. Right? So new water can’t get to it. That old contaminated dead water sits there. You have to pour the glass out a little bit to put some new healthy Back in, that’s how blood flow work,

which is why lymphedema and lymphedema is so dangerous and has

it has absolute control over blood flow to to the to the injured tissue

before we dive deep into stem cells does PRP work I have a lot

of friends. So here’s the deal. So PRP is like bone marrow like bone, okay? So PRP is bone marrow with no stem cells. It’s it’s a good growth component. It’s great at it’s a one time shot, right? So you when you put PRP in something, you’re getting a one time shot of growth factors that limits and stops the inflammatory response from cytokines. You’re not gonna go tissue. There’s no stem cells. You’re not getting a stem cell injection, which is one of the things that pushes me over the edge is somewhere but I wouldn’t got stem cells from my blood. No you didn’t. You got an injection, but it wasn’t stem cells. It’s PRP, platelet rich plasma. Now. PRP is also in bummer right but there stem cells and bone marrow. So when you say PRP and if you got it from your whole blood, it’s just PRP If you ain’t got bomer asper concentrate, it’s all the best components of PRP and stem cells so that that that study I was telling you about. So here’s how little so even though they’re they published this great study showing the boomers were concentrated help the complex factors heal 50% faster and all of them healed. The ones that didn’t have bone marrow, not all of them healed and they hit took twice as long to heal. That was probably 20 years ago, right? With bomer asper concentrate but they knew so little about bone morass but concentrate that they spun down whole blood to in the same machine to try to give it more volume because we thought the PRP might help the bone marrow work better, when in actuality you’re already getting PRP when you spend on bone marrow. So all we were doing literally in that study in Israel was they were just diluting it.

It’s I would just laugh and this is similar when you say No, you didn’t get stem cell you got blood is when you and I were talking about fasting, and I’ve had some friends that have maybe overdone it on Adderall. Little bit like I’ve gone three days without eating.

Excellent that doesn’t count.

And basically made the analogy Hey, save some money. I was in jail all weekend.

You know, there’s a great you guys talked about intermittent fasting. There’s a great study published in cell metabolism last year that showed that the correlate to longevity in mice and the mice had the longest food free intervals actually increase your lifespan.

Wait, we’ve got a whole nother hour but Dr. Wait McKenna I don’t want to lose

try to get into disease.

Yeah, there we go. Stay tuned five minutes.

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Welcome back. It is now the second hour of episode number seven of the gut check project. I’m Eric Rhaegar. joined with your host, Dr. Kenneth brown and we also have in studio today Dr. Wade McKenna stem cell expert and longtime orthopedic surgeon.

That’s right. Well

we started fired up getting a lot of brain energy going on on that last segment I started getting hot and I’m wearing my tequila 512 shirt nicely. I believe the two people sitting in front of me happened to be have some ownership in it.

Yeah, and big fans of the product. Yeah,

you’re gonna enjoy some tequila might as well have some tequila 512

Yeah, so I’m going to fire a question but I’m also gonna take a little CBD here to regenerate my an and amide into ag nice because I think I spent some there with the trying to keep up with Dr. mechanic

to believe that right?

It was someone system so expert I always looked at the see who’s behind me. Then, but literally we’ve done over 10,000 cases in us now. So

so let me let me throw one out for you. We got a message from Victoria that says, Can you fix bone on bone degenerative discs?

So here’s the short answer. And there’s, you know me enough already by now that notice. The in a good prospective randomized study started with just PRP because again, bone marrow concentrate, they’ll only reason PRP exist as a product is because we couldn’t get approval for bone marrow. So we were spinning down horseplay on the equity market. You could sell PRP into people pay more to have their horse injected and they will their kid and the horse has four extremities. And so we were spinning down whole blood created PRP while we were waiting on the FDA to approve bone marrow. whole blood is exempt and bomer wasn’t and and so to get the validations on bone marrow, a lot of PRP was So there you go. So the short answer is interdigital injections have already there’s several great papers already published. And the most recent one at two years 92% of the patients had inner discal injections on degenerative disc disease. And I would I would take it even a step farther in that in our in our clinical practice, we’ve done over 300 discs now. In that if you have an annular tear, mean a tear in the covering of the disc, that is a primary pain generator, it’s a bright spot on the MRI called a high Z lesion or high intensity high intensity signal. A lot of radiologists don’t fail to mention that I guess. But if there’s an annular tear, high intensity signal within that within the disk, that alone is a dramatic pain generator. It can even cause this exact same symptoms as a herniated disc what as far as lower extremity pain and weakness. Because the nerve crosses that annular tear, the annular tear generates substance p generates the sidechains generates the exact same pain response. So there’s two times or particular pain coming from the back leg and hip pain, ridiculous. So that’s the old folks called sciatica. If it can be pressure caused by big herniated disc neuro frameless stenosis, meaning that canal gets too tight, the facetted your back get hypertrophy get extra large as they wear out so there’s you can have pressure synoptic pressure on a nerve, where it feels like it’s just being crushed. That causes leg and hip pain and back pain. Or you can have a chemical ridiculous created by a tear in the desk. And it feels the same patient intelligence and that’s one

of the almost everybody always says my bulging disc Yeah, I could be a

bulging disc aren’t the problem because here’s what we know. Here’s what’s already published. If I do memorize on a lot of people have no back and leg pain that a lot. I’m holding this. So how’s it happened? How can some people’s mostly just hurt some people’s bulging disc stuff? Right. Not only that, if you experience if you have a bulging disc, the non operative follow up at two years is the same as operative follow. If you don’t have weakness, if you have pain that you can tolerate, and you don’t have weakness in the lower extremity, at two years, you’re doing the same as the people to how to diskectomy if you don’t have surgery, what that’s published for a long time, so we’re not so if you drew to free fragment, that free fragment will absorb your body isn’t really adept at getting rid of items extruded into the canal, and it will actually absorb and get rid of a free fragment. As long as that free fragment isn’t putting so much pressure on the nerve, that it decreases the blood supply from the pressure causes weakness in the lower extremity from the pressure, the nerve stops working, you have leg pain, you’ll have foot drop, you’ll have weakness in that surgery. You don’t have weakness, and you just have pain. What’s published now is if we inject that disk, the annular tear that doesn’t go away on its own will heal. And most of the time 92% in that study, if the annular tear heals, the back and leg pain go away 92% 92% of the patients that had an injection didn’t go on to a primary fusion.

Wow. Now

Now here’s the other side of that. The patients that had a fusion at five years 30% of them had two surgeries. So if you have a fusion at one level 30% of time with the next five years, you at risk of having a second surgery, either a fusion at the level above or below, or hardware removal or revision, or you get extra bone from the fusion and they have to reopen up the nerve roots have to do interframe anonyme. Every time you do surgery, the muscles of the back dialo so the power of material muscles, the muscle mass. So when you look at someone been forward, you know that little looks like Dinosaur it right that little thing the ridge the sticks up the middle, your back. Sure that’s called the spine is process. The muscles that lay on each side of the spine is process have to be moved out of the way for you to do a back surgery. We used to make fun of the spine surgeons when I was a fellow in trauma because they only have one incision, right, it’s midline, low backs, right? We had to learn all these other incisions and spine surgeons learn learn why. But what they don’t learn that trauma surgeons learn is we make an incision that is designed to not limit the structure function, blood supply or nerve to the muscle we’re moving in the spine, the multiply that small muscle on each side of that ridge. The nerve and vessel come from the middle and in the back. But we’re moving that away. And so when you do an MRI of someone’s back that’s had back surgery. Initially, the muscles on each side of that look like flaming neon, that’s tenderloin, right that’s The backstrap Hey, we’re fast runners we’re

not talking tend to

go well, I’m real hungry. So when you move that muscle all the way and you go back and you do an MRI that back that had surgery and now they’re five years out and they’re having pain again and the neurosurgeon looks at the film’s you guys wow the desk looks great the nerve it’s wide open. You just want payments, there’s no reason for you to be here your backside. Well, if you look at the MRI, though it used to look like tenderloin now looks like prime like like strip steak or or worse. Just we call it white muscle syndrome. It just whole thing just looks like fatty infiltration. Oh like Arby’s, like prime like more like prime rib, right? There’s a little bit of muscle mixed in there. Not

a diagnosis RV.

Yeah, you you are fasting for way too long. And you’re talking about

Arby’s.

Roy Rogers from my generation.

follow up question to that. She was asking how many injections did that take to achieve that most of the time it’s one one engine, one

dream, one injection, what we do, what we do is we want to be more specific, right? So my, my problem with stem cell science as a whole, is a lot of times patients get in the mix where they’re never really diagnosed. And I I’m a firm believer that you can’t treat something if you didn’t diagnose it, I if I don’t know what I’m treating, my chances of making it go away are pretty slim. And unfortunately, a lot of stem cell injectors out there don’t make the effort to actually diagnose a problem, but they’re, they’re willing to inject anything. Well, that’s that’s very nonspecific treatment and it kind of it kind of puts your, your result risk if you don’t know what you’re treating because you don’t know what you can heal what you can’t heal. When you what we so what we do when we’re doing disk injections, I want to know that was the pain generator. Right? So there’s an old test that used to be the standard of care before you had a fusion now, because fusions are so rampant in our country. We’ve gotten away from more specific diagnosis on making sure that the fusion was necessary, and they do it based on MRI criteria? Well, MRI criteria is not very specific because you have three does it look really bad on MRI and the patient have any back pain, or you can have three this look really bad on MRI, and only one of those just because of the patient’s primary pain, you don’t know. So what you do or what they used to do a lot and whatnot a lot of people do anymore, is to do a disco Graham, you literally put a needle within the desk of the back while the patient’s asleep. You kind of bring them up into Twilight a little bit. And you inject dye into the disk to increase in our disco pressure and see if it leaks. So if the dye has a tear in the died leaks out or it has a really disrupted pattern, and it causes can coordinate pain. So there’s three things to make a disco gram positive so

let me get this straight. When you guys are looking at a bad MRI of a patient that hurts. I’ve got boulders, they’ve got this you go to each desk and see

so what you do is the one Look the worst right especially ones have an annular tear will put that patient on asleep will put a needle in, you know, at least the this is different than a milligram. Oh absolutely a myelogram is just spent some time within the canal. Okay, right, it just looks for pressure, it looks for areas that are tight, right? The disc agram is positive if three things happen, it needs to cause pain. So if I inject your disc and you get this nice little pattern within the disc like a jelly doughnut so the disc is kind of a big jelly doughnut right the middle part of that is the consistency of like crab. The outer part of it is Big Five Brodick thick, ropey tight tissue. When you tear the rope, the crab could kind of leak out, put some pressure on it, your body kind of scars that in. So it doesn’t often generate a big free fragment, but it generates a smaller canal. And monogram will show that but this diagram you’re injecting into the desk, when you put die in the middle of Jonah. If it doesn’t have a disrupted pattern and then leak every Where it doesn’t cause pain. That’s not a pathologic disk. Even if it looks black on MRI, even if it looks like it’s herniated. If I inject dye in it and you have no pain, it’s negative, right? A lot of negative discs refuse. That’s what people that’s not a lot of people, right? So that’s what that’s what happens when someone does get better.

Okay, so you just covered something that so yesterday I had a friend text me. He’s like, Hey, give me the name of a good back surgeon. My back’s hurting. And I’m like, well, we gotta like, what is it? You know, are you looking? Is this something that’s chronic thing? You start asking questions like, is this a rehab thing? Is this whatever? And his response was, I’ve been cut enough I’d prefer to avoid it and then start realizing, oh my gosh, wait a minute. There’s a lot of times, it’s

you got to get the diagnosis. Right, right, because there’s a lot of pain generators in the back. The facade joint can cause pain, the muscle deterioration after surgery, causes secondary pain because that muscle that we kill that that multipotent muscle on the side of that ridge zone, little your back, as that goes away. That’s the primary poster support of the little facade joints on the side and it ends up being the primary support for the SI joints, both sides of the back of your head. So all these people that have fusions or have a laminectomy a lot of them end up with about five years later the back starting again, their joints hurt and then as we inject her facades Newsome, epidurals, now you’re talking not stem cells are not stem cells. This is traditional medicine, right? And then that it’s done in there. So now they’re getting SI joint injections. All you’re doing is kind of chasing the rabbit of deterioration of the muscle mass that was killed at the time of the laminectomy. So what we do with that patient as you take the dead pair of material muscles, just like we would if you have a big disrupted tendon. In 2013, we published a study where 10 centimeter mass the middle of Achilles, we didn’t reconstruct the Achilles I injected cells in it completely reformed. The most amazing part is we actually published the study 11 weeks later because she had no pain and was playing tennis again after being out of the sport for 10 years at 32 weeks She’s English at 32 weeks she comes back over to this country we’re having dinner and because she want to take me my girls were big fans and they wanted she agreed to go dinner so we go to dinner and she says you know, I’m Dr. McKenna my bump is gone. Like she’s the bump my mass, it’s gone. So I’m crawling around the floor at brios and Southlake trying to look at this. Let’s see my daughter’s chagrin right so but she’s right the massive completely gone so I said Look, do you mind if we get it wrong as both your attendance while you’re in town now that’d be lovely. So we get an MRI so we don’t we publish the paper that 11 weeks we’d heal this disrupted 10 centimeter mass that have been there for a decade in a

centimeter mass you keep referring to is basically scarred

it’s all scarred intended. Like it’s like the rope comes on done. It’s a big frayed up not right without frayed out not hurts. And it’s a mass. And she never had it fixed because no one ever ever promised her resolve. And this can promise it because because you can’t promise result when you’re fixed and attendance that have very good budget. complications, the complications Achilles tendon surgeries was what run Dan Marino’s career, right. So we can’t make it heal when we can. But you’d have to do less, not more. Matter of fact, there’s a lot of moving medicine now to go away from operative intervention into Achilles tendons and just go into functional racing, because the results are about to say, as far as you turn the sport and pain relief, so I

might as well I must ask you this because you always hear this. So if there’s so many physicians at the hospital that are MIT that are early 40s, trying to get out there and they go and they join a rec Soccer League, and they blow their Achilles and I see them wounded warriors. Yeah, and it’s a it’s a common injury. Do you operate on a torn Achilles

depends on how much retraction there is and how cute it is. Sometimes we’ll do a very minimally invasive limited approach to kind of re approximate the tendons, wrap it in a graph and inject it with cells and get those patients moving. Previously, this was a six to 12 month kind of thing. I don’t even keep people in a brace longer the first couple weeks Matter of fact, in the patient We’re talking about a never brace your captain regular shoe wear at 32 weeks when she shows back up with normal size tendon. we redo the MRI, you can’t tell what sides hurt. So what we didn’t know

what was one injection, one

injection cylinder one treatment. And what we didn’t know that was even part of my hypothesis, right? my hypothesis was I’m gonna get rid of the inflammatory tissue, I’m going to help the get rid of some of the fiberoptic scarring is painful. And I’m going to help give a better quality tissue with attendance, so she hurts less. What I didn’t know that those cells were capable of doing is completely remodeling the tendon, so that 10 centimeter mass remodeled. When you look at an MRI, they refer to it as heterogeneity, meaning lots of signal disorganize fibers or homogeneous city, which is nice black lammeter collagen fibers, right. She had complete homogeneous city of the tendon that we had injected. And exactly so the tendon on opposite sides 2.4 centimeters around the tendon on the side. We didn’t catch it before it was 10 Now it’s 2.4 centimeters around, I could not have done that surgically. Because surgically, if I open it up, I’ll try and make it the same size as the other side. But part of the healing is either atrophy, or hypertrophy kind of scars and get a little bigger so you’re not. without surgery, her body was able to remodel that tendon exactly the same size as the other side. So we actually published the follow up as a letter to the editor of the first journal that published the 11 week follow up showing it was healed. Because even though we stopped short, like when it healed, we’re like, hey, look at us, right?

Alright, so I think this is a good time to geek out again. So you’re saying you inject this into this? Not

under ultrasound, I take the tech the needle go all the way across the tendon and kind of engineers Look, I’m a I’m a I worked as a kid, right. So I worked in the oil field. My parents had a tongue service, landscaping I worked. It wasn’t like now it sounds like for they bringing it into the yard and lay down all the grass. was a kid if you had a pallet of grass? Yeah, like an acre out of that. Yeah, we broke it a little pieces. You You sprig the yard? Right? Yeah. So that’s what we do with the tenant, I’ll take that big 10 centimeter mass, I’ll take a three and a half inch needle under ultrasound go all the way across the mass and kind of inject as I come back. So you’re injecting

the stem cells, as you come

back, create a pathway through that tissue to kind of sprig the yard with new tissue. The way I think of it, as you’re kind of you have all this dead yard, you’re trying to bring some some more grass back to see some self acceptance. So I want to

go around a little bit more you say to create new tissues. So the stem cells go, Oh, this is an Achilles, let’s become WikiLeaks.

Yeah. And oh, by the way, there’s no blood supply here. And oh, by the way, this is a lot of five Brodick tissue here. And it’s a lot of stress.

That’s what I want to know. How does it get rid of the fiber architecture, I get that we’ve got these collagen fibers are all there,

right? It’s just organized, then how much blood supply? You’re literally repopulating a cellular area. With tissue that secretes the peptides and proteins necessary because cellular infiltration with new blood supply micro angiogenesis, okay,

the growth of cells start growing blood vessels and then they also send out the proteins that that, that get rid of the fiberglass, creating

remodeling of fiberglass deep tissue.

Wow. So it’s not just that it’s growing this new place, it’s smart enough to say we need to get rid of this so that we have room we need to increase blood flow over here. So it’s,

And oh, by the way, this tenant needs to be 2.4 centimeters around, we need to remodel it and shrink it down. And we didn’t do that. Right. And that’s published in a month. A lot of studies. Look, there’s a rotator cuff study and this is what drives me. Crazy. I’m sorry, I left out that. My mom may listen. So I don’t want to use that word because he will be horrified. But what drives me crazy is people talking about how there’s no There’s 10 year follow up on a rotator cuff study. So in 2002, to 2004 doctor in Paris and Phil horn again, because we didn’t have the kit approved in the US yet used our kit with our tear site to create bomer aspra concentrate, and inject into rotator cuff repairs. All of the patients with the surgery for full thickness rotator cuff repair 45 with cells 45. Without right the what’s published in every long term rotator cuff study and never hear your orthopedic surgeon tell you this, but orthopedics dirty little secret that surgery has a 30% failure rate. So was published in every long term rotator cuff study is only about 70% of those patients get better. And Dr. Horner Gao was destined in his mind he thought there’s no way that my studies going to look like that because all surgeons think the results are better than they are in my experience, that that means you’ve done one. So I hate that right in medicine when you say time after time means to And in my experience means you’ve done one in my series means you’ve done three so so Dr. Horn guys I do for

you’re going to publish

it for it for is a long term follow up randomized

for I’m speaking at the academy I’ve done more than all the other guys. So So Phil so he was sure his his dad was gonna be better but in what he did, he’s they did MRI as part of the healthcare system. So that it’s all you know, all that all those patients are that they don’t heal, you’re still liable for him. It’s all one pair group, right? socialized medicine. So at six months on MRI, the ones that didn’t have bone marrow only 67% were healed. Same as the US 30% failure rate in the ones who had bomer aspra concentrate, hundred percent real so 45 healed as six months on MRI. The only difference bone mass but concentrate now 67% of the 45 without now in Paris and we could never do this you asked us that means the studies over those the 33% that then he’ll need reinjected right. not embarrass. In Paris they continue to study for 10 more years with multiple Mr. Eyes at 10 year follow up, only 44% of the patients that didn’t have cells are still healed. 87% of the patients that had sellers are here, wow.

It’s twice as much twice as much. This is amazing. Like, and then that this was published

in the journal shoulder and elbow in

2014 2014. This is going on? Yeah. And we’ve got both objective and subjective data. And the functional outcome I was gonna say and the outcomes and the safety data. Yeah, this is exactly like what we were talking about before in the cannabis dial industry. They photo Bobby

you’re told that doesn’t exist. Right? Right. Like there’s no reason to, but there’s stem cells, the cuff doesn’t work. Oh, my God. I mean, other than 10 year follow up, what do you want? I mean, so here’s the real issue. Those were all patients that were taking the surgery for full thickness tears. What about the patient with the partial to this tear? Yeah, that we’re operating on. If they don’t need a decompression, they don’t have some big spurt, push right on the cough. Most of our patients we inject under ultrasounding. And it gets better go away.

Alright, so I want to take this opportunity to look because I’m getting questions about where Well number one, one that’s popped up a couple times in in your clinic, do you guys accept sir insurance for the surgery part? Sure.

Yeah. So the the traditional repeating certain still, right. I mean, I still do 50 surgeries a month and see 400 patients and I have a PA and and there’s practitioner and so Matter of fact, I still think Medicare because I studied Tony but does insurance pay for this dental insurance does not pay for the stem cell injection podcast. And not only that, if it’s a non surgical patient, if it’s someone that just wants stem cells injected with cough insurance, then pay any part of that and if I’m doing stem cells at the time of your cuff repair, a lot of times we get the bone marrow is kind of part of the surgery. So Okay,

so I know that you’re an orthopedist. But can as we go head to toe as we’re closing down this, where can stem cell help when you start looking at a body? Well, here’s the cool part.

So I have a business partner that’s way smarter than me, and way more money and been doing it for and made way more money than I’ll ever not make. And he followed me and listen to what we were doing for years. I’ve taken his kid plays at Kansas basketball with pretty elite program. I’ve taken care of a lot of athletes that are personal friends of theirs and that take care of his wife and his kids. Brian is a you know if you can, if you can, what about what about hair and face and you know all these other problems because the PRP product that we create right is used for hair growth for 10 years. There’s a book actually called the OSHA it’s published on injecting the PERI reeth Robin Benson’s the one that told us about that. Yeah, so so Charles Runnels and the guy is used as our kit the PRP kit from our tier side It just uses PRP no stem cells, and it works. But if you put stem cells para urethral at two years the structure and it kind of still gone compared to a virus like Matter of fact, we’ve injected patients now for the first gesture, your kindness that have had three butter slings still had stress urinary incontinence, you do a pair urethral injection, you inject the qatal tissue, the Spear of Agile wall and orgasming goes away women become sexually mature again as far as their their orgasmic response and the stretchier kindness go away then cough or sneeze go to movie. Ed was published in 2009.

Now we’ll get back but postal

basically anywhere in the body.

Anywhere that has a blood supply problem or or failure of the tissue.

There’s a lot of applications. We’ll get to that and the FDA problems next.

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Okay, Dr. McKinney, you can dance around that kind of music if you like.

We’re back with the last half hour, and I’m not going to waste a whole lot of time with a whole lot of intros. We’re going to start off. Dr. Brown, you had some questions during the break you and ask wait, just the applications and

Panama. So basically, I was asking you what different places could be and you said any place where there’s blood supply. And then I remember when I was watching the Joe Rogan show which with with your business partner, Neil Reardon, you guys had a clinic in Panama, and then they were talking disease states. So right. I mean, we’re not saying anything that’s going to step on the FDA. You’re not recommending it, but what diseases have they done, especially in Panama.

So Neil has really good and Neil’s a PhD, not a clinical physician. So he doesn’t have that patient care, responsibility and state so but as a clinical professional, he designed a process that in Panama for the administration of IV cells, And the best use of IV sells like we talked about before. It’s about what they secrete. Right? So autoimmune disorders, rheumatoid arthritis, Ms. Autism, I think Neil published a series recently, like 2000 or 2500. MS patients that have no brain and spinal cord lesions are more a couple years out. And there’s some fairly famous local MS patients that were pretty well disabled in a golf cart and wheelchair and are running around on the sidelines coaching football again. You know, when when IV inject from IV therapy, letting these letting the cells get caught up in the pulmonary parenchyma, right? I think Neil’s protocols are like 120 million cells, 20 million cells per dose and five injections over a period of several days. It’s been incredibly adept at treating autoimmune disorders. Now there’s some of these disorders that you have to continue to tree I mean, you need a one time treatment that you’ll burn through those cells eventually and those cells aren’t going to give you all new cell your volume and so you have to get some of those has to be retreated especially with like rheumatoid or, or some of the more aggressive like pulmonary fibrosis he’s treated. There’s actually okeanos Heart Hospital in the Bahamas, there’s been treating heart failure for a decade. With this stance with with, they’re using different cell. So Neil uses cultured cells from the umbilical cord on the words jelly in okeanos down the Bahamas. Currently, what they’re doing is they’re taking a concept as a construct from fat called sbf, digesting the tissue culturing those cells and injecting them might be incurring heart failure. Now, heart failure has been cured for a long time. So there’s a study heart

failure has been cured for a long time.

I just decided that I never go into your clinic about three years ago. We Stop by for a visit and you are holding in your hand. The the increase in ejection fraction specifically to to CHF.

Yeah. So so there’s, there’s actually a study published, called symbiosis is a rat study out of Harvard 10 years ago, 15 years ago, they took cardiac failure that there was induced chemically in mice connected the vascular system to a non diseased mass, the heart failure. So, the

wave of it said that again, they connected the vascular so they so two mice together

Yeah, what literally, yeah, it’s called symbiosis, right. So

the very pleasant

way to say we’re going to do some Frankenstein.

Here’s the way here’s the here’s the problem. Here’s what has to happen. The mice that didn’t have the disease has to be able to sense the heart failure, and still be healthy enough to secrete the cells necessary to treat the heart failure.

Like that new Samsung disease, charge your phone put arrows

on That’s exactly right. So that’s how the movie Human Centipede started so

so the disease mice wasn’t able to create the right cells to treat his heart.

I just want to say that I had an over under of how many episodes we would get in until Eric would bring up the movie human said Human Centipede.

Exactly, do we need it?

Should we do this again?

We’ll be talking about zombies.

But that the studies published a long time ago, so at the time, not didn’t even know why the heart failure went away. Now, we’ve actually isolated the peptides and proteins necessary that were secreted to make the heart failure away. It there’s a study done on you know, if you want to talk about just one beneficial effect to stem cells that way underappreciated it’s the prevention of infection and treatment of infected wounds. The there’s a study done out of San Francisco where they took mice and I at your genetically created 16 Different types of nosocomial pneumonia, what you would get in the hospital, right? They did treat the mice within robotics they took bone mass but concentrate, made it as a slurry, treated it with a spray pulmonary spray and cured all the pneumonia and all six different types of mice, then they they took the alveolar they sacrifice the mice take the alveolar washings and could not culture out the bacteria on the abelar washings there’s a there’s a peptide called Ll 37. That is secreted by the cells from bone marrow that is extremely bactericidal and helps modulate T cell function so stem cells can only do three things right

Hold on I’m gonna stop you right there because I I have a friend who’s a bodybuilder peptide expert and we got to talk in that a lot of the in the bodybuilding community by using peptides so the way your are these are we talking different peptides Can I just take the CHF peptide and

that’s that’s the that’s the that’s the the big intellectual property grab right now. Right everyone try to patent a peptide My my theory on that is you want to listen to the orchestra or trombone. You know, we have a full spectrum or a nice, yeah, I’m just telling you that a stem cell, I don’t have to tell the cell what peptide to produce it. No, Rose. Yeah. So if I put the if I concentrate the cells and put them on that go, your body knows what it needs. It’s the difference between you if you’re hungry, going to 711 or going to Central Market? Where are you going to have the most choices? I think when you start isolating different peptides and proteins to give to people, you’re limiting what the body’s really capable of, or what it may need, because it may need some of the other cofactors in there. So you want to have Central Market of choices, not not 711 right. And right now, so i think i think that’s I think that’s crucial.

So you’ve talked about your experience in and making sure that people get the rights themselves making sure that a diagnosis is important, making certain that people know that you carry different diseases. What is it that you feel that Next Generation is you’d mentioned exit zones but

yeah so I think the wage the differentiate yeah so that we get rid of some of the the guys that think and you know and God bless the doctors like I know how hard it is to make a living as a physician it I’ve never I’m not throwing rocks at all because the doctors are told stuff and and they don’t know right but most of what’s being injected out there and called a stem cell is completely a cellular and has no stem cells in it and for the most part don’t have a whole lot of growth growth factors the most popular amniotic graft on the market right now has between 50 and 150 pika grams of PG to PG tues that one compound we’re talking about that helps drive initial formation new blood spy and that company is publicly traded and down from about $12 a share it about four so it shouldn’t be too hard for everyone to know what I’m talking about and hopefully but the graph that Dr. Reardon and I designed we got that graph and injectable amnion up to about 800 Pico grams a PG two

okay now What did they what did this other company that that Stock dropped, what was it? How many people grams that they have

about anywhere from 50 to 150. So there’s not even really good standardization, right? So with different different doses, we get somewhere between 50 pika grams 150 grams. The graph MBI therapies, the company we started back in the day got about 800 picograms a PG to the reason for Nyland is falling out where we’re not in the same clinic anymore, is because a new graph came out as the as the physician, you know, the one that actually has to treat the patient. I’m not using the graph that has my name on it anymore. The new graph company out of great mind has about 3200 grams pG 230 200.

Wow, you guys had 800

Yeah. And some of the metrics that what are

the metrics that

the the original the largest maker graph, and somewhere between 50 and 150?

Hey, let me just I mean, not to go down this rabbit hole, but I’m impressed by this. You said that the reason why Neil and I are no longer business partners is because This one thing we’re basically somebody came out with a superior product and your names on the other one

Yeah, yeah and it’s unfortunate for me right because financially You know, it would make sense

well it’s gonna it’s gonna affect the friendship that you have it’s gonna affect the business oh yeah and it’s gonna I mean many I’ll say this

almost all doctors I

know do not have that level of humility to go My name is on this one but wow, Good job guys. Let’s start let’s start treating the people the right way.

You know what? My life is so uncomplicated if you just do the right thing I I literally, I look I’m not I don’t always make the best decisions. My personal life I’m not I mean, the mass, right? But when it comes to taking care of patients, I’ve always been laser focused on making sure I do the right thing and try to put what’s in their best interest first and they’re trusting me I feel very medieval about that doctor patient relationship but a patient’s asleep. It’s like your night with a sword standing by the bed ready to smoke anyone ready to hurt? I mean, I mean, I mean, you’re their only protector, they’re trusting you to put themselves in a completely flat acid asleep state and counting on the fact that you’re going to make them better when they wake up and, and you know, they have to wake up. Yeah, well, yeah, Derek has to take care. But that oath we took still, I mean that, you know, PhDs don’t take that oath, right? They’re allowed to just be businessman. As a physician, you really you really can’t I mean that there. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of way better business people medicine than me. But I don’t. There’s I don’t think there’s a lot of people that have worked as hard to hone their surgical skills and decision making is I try to make it patient specific. When I take care

of Do you feel like that stem cell nomenclature will change more towards the Zelma? Yeah,

so here’s what we’re trying to do. Okay, because I think that it’s important to set the good products apart from the bad products, but I always use the analogy that you would never pay Kobe beef prices for hamburger, but people are right in stem cells because you don’t know if it’s Kobe beef or hamburger, but the way to tell is we need to start talking about what’s in it, or what’s produced by it, which is exosomes. The reason the stem cell works or the way a stem cell works is exosomes secretion, growth factors. So we talked about growth factor secretions and quantifying how much growth factors isn’t this how much growth factor is created by this? That’s the difference when bohmian PRP right, PRP is a one time shot growth factors. boomers, injection of cells, one time shot growth factors, but those cells continue to produce growth factors for 16 to 20 weeks. Lots of PRP shots if you give bone marrow injection, not one because those cells stay metabolically active with amniotic tissue added to it. So as a tissue graph. Now we have day one cells. So if I use your bone marrow, your bone marrow seen UV light, radiation, everything you’ve ever done all your stress It has had an effect on your quality your bone marrow, amniotic tissue and Senia that it’s day one tissue. Now it’s stupid. But it’s really strong produces a lot of stuff. We don’t know what to do with it. Your bone marrow is the director of the play. It can be, you know, a movie in a warehouse with five guys that everyone dies, where it can be Lawrence of Arabia, you know, 100,000 people in the cast. The larger the cast of characters, the more that’s possible. And that’s what Amazon does. It gives you all the good. The analogy I use all time is if you’re moving, you want a guy like me stacking the truck because I’ll turn the sofa upside down. I’ll put the table on the floor. I’ll get everything in one truck. But I want a bunch of 17 year olds helped me get the furniture out house, but if they stack the truck, don’t make five trips, right? bone marrow stacks the trop amnion delivers you a real high concentration of growth factors and exosomes.

You actually lost me there for a second So are you saying this The amniotic origin of these cells is the superior one or the bone

in growth factor number only. Right? So when it comes down to just pure amount of exosomes right at the beginning, your bone marrow is kind of limited sometimes. If you’re 75, you had radiation therapy, you smoked ever. If you drink a lot, you know yourselves.

You looked at Eric when he did.

He did get me involved in 512, like 10 years ago, so maybe responsible for my lime affinity.

I tell people all the time, I don’t drink I’m just addicted the limes.

The but but all that has an effect, right? He has an effect. So you do not have as many cells as you were born with. So

do you guys mix the two is what I’m getting at. Now, that would be that the FDA

would hate the word again that I will inject the two in the same location. Right. So I’ll use your bone marrow to get all the initiation, the healing started because it’s the smart cell and it’s the stem cell. Right if we’re doing a stem So injection it’s bone marrow. If I’m using amnion, I don’t talk about as a stem cell injection, its growth factors. It’s an amniotic tissue graft, because that’s the way the FDA says has to be worded. I’m injecting it amniotic tissue graft into an injury now, we’ve used amniotic tissue since 1910. So the year Marconi invented the radio is the year the first amniotic tissue paper published in medicine for burns and corneas. But it was dead, right? But he’ll burn till and help current corneas heal. Now, we don’t have to kill the amnion we can sterilize it. This is where genetic testing is coming. So cool, because now you do a genetic swab of the mom, the baby the membrane. We know that that graph doesn’t have the gene for cancer someday, let alone in the disease now, right. So genetic testing, made it where I can take this graft, not have to radiate it, not to kill it. I can freeze it down to minus 80. I can make sure it’s sterile. We Wait for the culture to go back. The way to test contamination graph is endotoxins. Right? So sterile water has point 050 endotoxins. Or point 054. That’s qualified is sterile. Our graph has point 050. So it’s more sterile sterile water.

But it’s live healthy tissue

that your body cannot have an allergic reaction to me and I was completely immune privileged. It’s what protects mommy and baby from each other. Right? It’s really good at that. But it also secretes all the growth factors necessary to help you become a baby. Now, we don’t want baby. I don’t need anything fetal. I need maternal. So the amniotic membrane, the placenta is maternal tissue, everything that comes out of mommy after the baby. Those are the cells I need to help you heal, because I want you to turn into I mean, there’s some studies out there where they took Maternal Fetal Stem cells, inject them in a bag and guys good teeth. It right teratoma where you’re ever gonna get tumor formation

wasn’t that far off about growing a mouth out of the side of your face? Hey,

man. Well, Mel Gibson’s a big fan, right? So we have, I mean, Mel went on Joe Rogan and told him I cured his back, you know, when he we, so not speaking out turn to say that when he went on Rogan and said, you know, we cured his back and stuff like that, you know, we must have done something pretty. I mean, he had three let me hit, he had significant issues.

Alright, so now, this is a perfect time to sit there and get into why in the world. Are we not doing this? Yes, everywhere.

FDA has been an issue, right? Well,

yeah. And it’s the FDA is a huge issue, because of the way the drug company, FDA paradigm works. And we’re the only country where you spend $5 million to get a job that makes 60,000 a year.

Where’s that 5 million come from? Right?

In 2008 I don’t know what happened. 2008 but in 2008, something politically happened with Where the FDA was less than 20% the size of this today, and it didn’t really govern tissue graph. Fat taking stromal vascular fraction digesting it culturing, it wasn’t a big deal before that. Those were we could get the stem cells. And they weren’t. They’re not the best stem cell in the world. And bummer wasn’t even really regulated. So it wasn’t the best himself, the world was readily available. We knew how to get it and digesting it was against the law. And now digestion to the tissue is qualified as more than minimally manipulate to the sounds against the law. And we can’t culture it we can’t expand fat as a subset by itself isn’t a great graph unless you grow it. Sure. If you get a lot more cells, it can be viable, but it’s not good just with him. I mean, it doesn’t do much it’s pretty inert.

So where’s the where’s the future going to go with the FDA and wrecking? Well, we have

politically changed the environment, right? We have to make it where every congressmen and senators and put in place by drug company

is that what’s holding you back? I mean, because I think what’s holding you know what When we had, who’s our guest that we talked about policy?

Oh, joy, joy

when we had joy on. It’s a lot of misinformation. Basically, it’s old archaic laws that carried over, that still listed HAMP as this scheduled one in misinformation. And I

was I would love to think that but I will tell you that when

when 90% of Google’s ad revenue comes from Viagra and Cialis and stantons and humera next destroys your immune system. If you if we publish a paper and you don’t know where to put the comma, you’re not finding it. And it’s not an artificial moving us down the ladder. I mean, I have to feel like that. You know, when a drug company puts something out its way at the top of the food chain, even if you do a stem cell product, same way with hemp and CBD. If they make it a drug. It’s gonna be You know, it’ll, it’ll get through it really quick if you if it’s homeopathic or you can grow in your backyard all sudden, class one drug, the US government used to pay people to grow hemp. I mean, there’s an old commercials, rope wins wars, the federal government during the World War was paying farmers stop growing corn and soy and grow hemp because we needed ropes, right when wars, right? And, you know, somehow with prohibition, we got tied into that. And then when they repealed it, it didn’t get repealed, right. But it just got bundled in with alcohol during Prohibition. That’s what happened. But the legalities of it the regulatory part of it, is because that’s about when drug companies started to get popular medical school was started by the Rothschilds who, oh, by the way, on the first row company, so they had to teach guys how to write there. So I mean, it’s not a conspiracy, but

Well, well, I mean, I’m sitting here thinking about somebody if somebody’s listening to this and wheelchair with Ms. Now looking at a drug that’s costing 10,000 a month, right?

The average cost of an MS patient USA $290,000 a year. Neil’s treated in mass in Panama for a decade. And it has complete resolution of a lot of patients. I mean, if you go to patients for ethical use of stem cells, if you get a lot of the support groups out there on the internet, for MS and for stem cell use, those are all patients that Neil’s treated, and when patients are treated at the clinic, right? what’s

so cool is when things like this open up, and it allows people like the article that I brought up where they were culturing these stem cells and CBD and polyphenols, then the science can it start expanding on itself, then we can start looking at this and

I get depressed a little bit because the science is so we’re already out there. I mean, it’s so hard to find a clinical study on the use of bomer aspart concentrated in any part of the body that’s not already written. The book that oh shot by Dr. Runnels was just using PRP that was published a decade ago. Hair Growth with PRP decade ago the Vampire Facelift with PRP decade ago now with Boomer asper concentrating me on you can always, you know end up seeing any party quite a bit. Ed, we’re talking a minute ago. erectile dysfunction in 2009 paper was published and 12 out of 12 males 70 years old that didn’t respond, orals, status post prostatectomy, bone marrow 60 cc’s condense down to six three cc’s and the side of the corpus callosum and by the way, that doesn’t hurt it’s not some giant painful shot. It’s a like a skin prick. Not not to be

can say your skin prick but you can’t Nevermind.

So we’re talking a very pain, barely painless injection. 10 hours 12 miles at two years, I still have spontaneous reactions. Now. So that was the cure for ed in status post prostatectomy males without drugs in a one time trip. treatment with two year follow up with zero side effects. And that was 70 year old bone marrow post radiation not the best cells ever.

Right? Yeah,

but let’s clarify this was published in the Journal of Urology

I don’t want I don’t want I could just see some I got some pretty tough patients I could just see some guy trying to pound his femur this

was a little more complicated.

So you need to you need to go to somebody you can trust to because you had mentioned also in the past and I’ve even heard from people who said Well I’ve had stem cells injected and and it didn’t work and it turns out that they’ve used local yeah explain Okay,

so just my just another pet peeve I have unfortunately I guess I have a lot growing a growing fortitude and growing fortress of pet peeves. And you can watch it all day if you watch them sounds excellent internet, go to YouTube. The the toxic dose of local anesthetic, epinephrine or cortical steroids. All cortical steroids time. sit alone mathas a kenalog bupivacaine marcaine lot of cane epi the amount that safe on a stem cell injection is zero. So what does it do to the stem cells devices them and destroys the cell? So the you destroy them on contact, right so so in culture none of the cells magnitude first hour if you add a drop of lot of candy your culture platter, right so when you see someone get a stem cell injection quote unquote and they and they add light light came local anesthetic or any steroids in the knee, you killed everything. So you turned what could have been a stem cell injection into some growth factors. I mean, you know, you don’t unravel all the proteins without injection, we destroy all the cell walls. So you’re no longer getting a stem cell injection.

It just goes back to a differentiated cells,

right? So you may make you a little bit better, but it’s not going to grow tissue. You’re not gonna grow cartilage from that. Sure, because there’s no cells you weren’t given a stem cell injection you were given a stem cell injection right up until you put local anesthetic or steroids around it. kills everything.

Do you see the future of this as being a mix between the amniotic and the person the patient’s own bow?

I think the the Well, that’s what’s legal right so so right now that that’s all we have and that’s what’s legal in states. And we do and we would never culture bone marrow because you can you can grow tumors if you get about five cell passes with bone Rosberg concentrate, you will sell your expansion you can get some some mutagenic component of that, that you don’t get with postnatal tissue. By the way, as you culturally expand postnatal tissue you don’t have the mutagenic potential or meaning to form a tumor or cancer that you do with with Boomer aspra concentrate.

But no, I think that the future would be

a graph created from the umbilical to that also has the stromal tissue. There’s a stout there’s a cell stem cell now that when we were in medical school wasn’t a stem cell. It was an undifferentiated mononuclear endothelial cell, it’s an every capillary bed. It’s actually the most numerous stem cell in the humors. In the human body is an every capillary bed. Yeah. And the cells called a parasite in a parasite wasn’t a parasite. Five years ago, a parasite is a stem cell, that’s a cell is the first cell to see a wound. It’s the first cell to drive growth factors in. That’s the first cell to cause the human political cd 34 saw to come into the way the parasite if we could turn a graph from umbilical tissue that involved that so that we could culturally expand

I’m sorry, if you can make a graph from umbilical tissue and that tissue.

Yeah. So that the umbilical me onto the lining of the umbilical cord, it’s a, it’s a covering the stromal tissue, the umbilical cord has three vessels in it. The what’s being done right now in most places in the world, is from Wharton’s jelly, the jelly around those three vessels. That’s where so there’s some stem cells. They’re not the best. There’s, so we’ve talked about cord but there’s, there’s no stem cells or corporate cord was undifferentiated blood. It’s good. There’s no stem cells, the stem cells are in the stromal tissue, the PERI vascular tissue, the lining, the collagen fibers, that’s where those stem cells are trapped.

So this is where a lot of confusion comes in. Because I even had a friend that actually I think he interviewed. And, you know, the question was brought up, and there’s so much confusion with it that everybody thinks it’s cord blood that’s going on

inside. Yeah, there’s no cord. But look, I have cord blood sore from all three of my daughters, I’m going to tell you about my life and it says a mess. I have a 22 year old 17 year old six year old, so I have all the cord blood. And in 2008, the US government said that they own it. So I still pay the storage fees on it, but I’m not allowed access to it unless they are treated. If my kids have an FDA approved diagnosis for the use of cultured and expanded cord blood, they’ll give some of that to me and let me treat the kid. So if there’s three different types of leukemia, right Now they’re completely curable. If you have cordless or your kid, your kid or first to be sibling gets one of those types of leukemia, it’s 100% curable from the cord blood you have stored. And that’s all the FDA will allow you to treat. But if you have osteoarthritis that he gets asked you, or threatens me if I could take some cord blood, culture, the tissue, create the cells that are in it, and don’t make them where they would matter from the umbilical tissue. I could just use that and treat your knee. That’d be awesome. But it’s illegal.

Wow. That is a lot

and depressing. Mia. It is. I mean, I’m literally thinking of people with heart failure people you know, with Let me ask you the heart

failure study, they actually took those cells and they were squirting them in the Perry card in this different study, but in Mr. square to the pair card, even the mastic your heart failure, and it worked. But they couldn’t when they when they killed the mice there was none of those cells within the heart. So they have the cure the heart failure. Yeah. So then they get Minar vascular Stoke here, the heart failure, then, but they couldn’t get the cells in the heart. Then he injected him in the calf of the mice where they couldn’t move as took your heart fire.

Quick question. Does it help the brain Alzheimer’s 30 seconds degeneration?

Sure, and

I didn’t think there would be a really good way The problem is getting those cells past the blood brain barrier and the only way to do that would be as a nasal spray of growth factors on the crib before him play with you laying down to treat like a post concussion syndrome that may or may not have been done with significant success but you’ll be allowed to in the US request

Wade,  come back check out stem cell expert Dr. Wade McKenna