#5 James Carroll, CEO THOR Laser, Photobiomodulation therapy

Alright, it is time for the gut check project here with your host, Dr. Kenneth Brown. I’m Eric Rieger. This is episode number five.

Episode Number five is a big one because now we have enough episodes that we can be found on or we’re going to submit to iTunes and the other platforms.

It’s where everybody has to start somewhere.

You got to start somewhere and I think that we’ve had a pretty good start we’ve had some pretty incredible guests

That is no joke. I mean the feedback fortunately and thanks to everyone who’s been watching and listening and sharing, sharing, obviously helps us spread the platform but certainly appreciate it. Also, big shout out to the other spoonie hosts, Chef Patrick, the cowboy Chuck Wagon. I mean, everybody else who’s been kicking in for helping spread the word, even the partners in our sister station across the road. Mojo Mojo 5.0 Mojo 5.0.

Absolutely, we’ve got to show some love. This is exciting. Everybody’s trying to get this station, this digital station off the ground chef Patrick is he is living it. And, you know, today in the booth being our producer, again, this guy works all the time.

Every day is a vacation brother. Every day’s a vacation.

Every day can be a vacation if you can improve your quality of life. And that’s what this whole show is all about. When you say

yes, absolutely. I’m so excited about this show. We got somebody really cool. A great speaker. Scientist, James Carol, of bore laser something that I know nothing about something that most people know nothing about. But I know how that feels when we started looking into bacterial overgrowth CBOE when nobody else was talking about it, people would look at me and they were confused. This is why this show gut check radio, check your ego at the door. Anything’s on the table to learn. And we’re all going to learn together. That’s this is what’s so exciting about today’s show,

man, there’s no joke. So for for everyone else who’s who’s joining today. Number one, thank you. Number two, James Carroll’s completely different this is someone who’s going to introduce something that really to me. It was introduced to me by my my wife, she was the one who said have you ever heard of photobiomodulation? And I looked at her and I said No, I haven’t. But really because of the mindset of what we’ve been doing at kbd health what we’ve done even before it KBS research with Atrantil, on and on, we’ve always wanted to remain open You have something new. Show me how it works. Tell me a little bit about it. And as I began to learn a lot more about photobiomodulation indoor laser, it was more than impressive. It kind of just captivated me.

Yeah, those of us in the industry Eric, call it PBM. So, yeah, so when you brought it up to me, we were actually working and you’re like, yeah, hey, my wife has got this new photobiomodulation laser at her health clinic correct. And, and he’s like, I don’t know what that is. And we started looking we had a little break and patients and I went Holy cow, there is some serious data on this. It’s It’s It’s It’s deep. It’s not just something new Nathan edit a while. Yeah. And it’s one of those things like I’m like, wait a minute, if this is true, let’s find the guy who owns this company. And you did. And thank goodness, he he travels all the time. This is insane. So his time is very valuable. So this is going to be an incredible episode. Just so you know. We are in Episode Five and we have an international guest James Carol hails from London. That’s right. I was just talking to him. He spends 10 days in the UK where his home is 10 days in the United States and then 10 days traveling the world. That is a tough life. He works as hard as chef Patrick.

I was impressed how well he speaks English being from out of the country,

you know, kind of wild, wild. I’m, uh, you know, what I’m really looking forward to? Was that that British sense of humor?

I love it. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s just like us here in Texas.

Hey, speaking of guests, I do want to bring this up. When I went to clinic and people that heard our show with Marc, last week, so much feedback, patients that have overcome cancer, patients that love the idea that he overcame cancer and then gave back that story was pretty incredible. And I want to thank everybody for listening. And if you didn’t listen to it, go back and check it out because it is a story of accomplishment, a story of survival and he did a great job telling it

he really did do a good job telling it on top of that we received well, several Roll email, not just in terms of, you know, thanks for having mark on but we got a share a couple with him with those with you yesterday and it was I’ve overcome cancer and I’m trying to find new things to do to give back. I’m suffering from cancer currently and hearing someone like Mark gave me hope. We had some others who just were simply how do I get involved with rock hills Wings for Life, which is exactly what marks charity is and and they they take people just to recap, they take people from one end of Texas and give them opportunities to have safe travel to a large cancer treatment facility such as MD Anderson or up in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we’re very, for free, no charge to the to the customer to the patient whatsoever, and deliver them safely so they can get treatment and return home.

And I think one of the coolest things about that is we did talk about the fact that the pilot is a cancer survivor. So the people He’s taking are terrified. Yeah, they have questions and he could tell them the story Hang in there. We’re going to try and do this. And sometimes he would drop people off, and he wouldn’t bring him back. And that happens. I’m a doctor, we see things happen all the time, but the right frame of mind, the willingness to keep going, sometimes you can overcome without question, and he does know that he can. The great thing about mark is he’s he’s not only working on he’s soon to become a well known public speaker. That being said, he’s he’s got the anecdotal stories to that make them feel comfortable, like squeaky buttcheeks. And if you missed it, go back to gut check radio.com you’ll be directed to the direct RSS feed on our page. We’re improving all the time. But right now you can go back to the episode where Mark was and listen to it. Or you can check out the YouTube channel spoonie radio or gut check project will take you exclusively to get chick project episodes. Awesome. Speaking of improving all the time, we always like to start the show with something personal, we do. So last week I think I, you know, I brought up my, my children my son Lucas was playing in a large tournament called the Easter bolts and national tournament and right after the show it was broadcast live and we were able to watch it as a group and it was really cool to watch my son there, end up getting second and singles. Very impressive big tournament and actually got gold in doubles. So we’re really proud of him for that. And then he went immediately there and he’s been playing in this ITF Now why is that relevant? Because I’m a single dad this whole time. Holy cow. It’s hard. All props to any single parent out there that tries to work and still managed to pick up the kids get them to their things. It is kicking my ass. Oh my gosh, it’s hard. Yeah, trying to work and be there at the right time and everything and so props to everyone that’s out there as a single parent, or even temporary if your children off and doing stuff, but it is I have a whole new respect for that whole new respect. I

know that whenever I do Travel and I do it without, without Marie and I come back home, the first thing you should do is make certain that they get an opportunity to relax because they’ve been hard at it making your travel possible. And well, if you just want peace in the household, it just makes sense to do. Yeah.

Now, the one advantage of that is that we do get to spend a little time and last week we did talk about Lucas playing tennis and also Carla doing in her theater class, the improv rules, the rules of improv. So last night, we’re having dinner, we’re talking about that. And I was like, hey, any other improv rules that I need to know about? And she said, Well, there’s I think it’s Rule Number eight, there are no mistakes. happy accidents and opportunities. Like oh, Bob Ross. happy little tree, happy little tree. So happy accident. So that’s what this show is going to be about. We never screw up. We just have happy accidents or opportunity opportunities. And then one of the opportunities that I’ve never done with my daughter, which is I watched a college basketball game for the first time with her. I’m not much of basketball fan. Sure, but let me tell you what there’s a team locally Texas Tech I think you got some ties to it. I’ve heard of it. You got me watching it now.

Absolutely. And of course you’re gonna hit inoculated and watching college ball. That’s that’s the team to watch right now. They’re heading into the final for this coming week and my family’s pumped. Both of my boys play competitive basketball in high school. Gage and Mac are both super excited and they match up hopefully well, with Michigan State first. And if they win that, then our friend from last week is going to take us to the final game. And that’ll be fun

marks gonna fly you to the final game Mark said he would take us to the final game. If that is not incentive to have Texas Tech win right there. Come on coach beard, you can do it. You make it happen. That that is awesome. That is going to be so cool. The whole family’s gonna go whole family’s going to go

so it’ll be really enjoyable but regardless of healthy play, super proud. What an incredible coach pulling together some great kids To accomplish what they did first Final Four for the school, so they’re really excited. And the other three teams in the tournament are are pretty solid also.

So it’s somebody that doesn’t follow basketball that much. But you were talking about this the really unique thing that the announcers always talk about is their defense. Just explain really quickly why their defense is doing so well.

Well, a lot of times I believe the way I understand it is basketball teams. In college, they just simply play better defense than they do in the NBA. But even more to the point, the way that I think that coach beard and his assistant Mark Adams have designed the defense is they really, really force outside shots that protect the middle if I think that you made the comment. I saw every time Eric that as they moved into the center, suddenly they everyone collapsed around them. Not only could they not make their way to to the glass to for an easy layup, it’s very difficult for them to distribute the ball once they get trapped in there. So yes, someone may be really good at firing from outside and you know, that’s kind of the risk that you take by not guarding the perimeter really, really tight. But you come into Three point arch and the further you make your way towards the rim there’s going to be more than one defender kind of blocking your path so it’s it’s kind of a kind of a choke out defensive they kind of perfected

This is super exciting I was just reading something about how the ticket sales for this yeah are just massive like Texas is going in mass.

Well you some people may already know and some people may not know at all or is larger than state is Texas is there hasn’t ever been a national champion from Texas except for Texas Western now known as you tap and that was what the movie glory road was made about. The first team to field five black starters. And they took on Kentucky and beat them. And so that’s that was when when was a 96 I’m going to mess up the year I think 1963 64 maybe 68 I’m not really sure. I was coach Don Haskins. And I’m off on the year but it was definitely the 60s.

Yeah, you got a minor in basketball history. didn’t do it, Texas. Tech. Uh huh.

Yeah, that and just really other random useless information that makes me no money. So

well the last couple shows where we somehow ended up doing movie quotes. There’s no way I can quote anything from that movie.

Just leave it right there. You could have stopped and said shoot it. And that wouldn’t build into like, right there.

My extent of basketball movies is Hoosiers.

So that’s pretty good. And Gene Hackman is pretty solid. It’s a good movie. That’s great movie. Yeah, it’s feel good. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it’s fine.

So speaking of feel good, what we also like to do is I always try to find some article, medical article that we can summarize here that happened this week, that would be pertinent to something that we’re going to be doing Sure, and this week, I found a really cool article.

It’s just the one it is about muscle and intestinal damage and those who perform athletic events

100%. So you and I have talked about this and we have discussed this in different lectures, that I see a ton of endurance athletes triathlon. It’s really high level athletes that come in with intestinal issues. And I have to explain to them different reasons why that can actually happen. But I just see so many of them. And then when we fix their gut, they end up getting like some of their personal bests, right. And this article came out, it’s the first one that I’ve ever seen, that actually looked at biomarkers and blood as to how this could actually happen. So what this paper actually looks looked at is the levels of how blood levels of inflammation and intestinal inflammation are produced and the effects on the body when these elite triathletes compete really interesting.

Now it is. So whenever you’re looking at blood effects and the way that an athlete is going to be measured, how did they check the intervals? And basically what did that data mean to just the average athlete,

so I do not want to offend any of our elite triathletes out there. But this is this is fascinating because we always talk about homeostasis, which is when you stress your body, you have to allow Your body to recuperate correct, most of the patients that I see when they have something happen, they’re usually training really hard for something. They’re trying to qualify for a big race or trying to qualify for Kona, or one of those things. And I’ve recently seen, and I think this has been a trend across the country, that a lot of people are starting to do these endurance races, triathletes, marathons, they reach a certain age, and that, you know, people want to stay in shape. And that’s a way to stay in shape. So what this article looked at was the mechanical and metabolic stress from the intense work of muscle cells during long lasting efforts causing significant damage to the cellular structure. Why this is relevant this week. Because James, Carol’s gonna come on and talk cellular inflammation without a doubt. He definitely will with photobiomodulation. But let me let me ask you a little bit. So we’re talking specifically about endurance athletes in this article? Correct? Correct. And so, to me, it seems like that maybe the another glaring aspect is somebody who’s doing Who’s doing an endurance sport? Whether it be marathon running, or triathlete, like you said, longest cycling, ultra marathoners, the guys who tried to make a run across the country, which I think that the record is 43 days, believe it or not, was that Forrest Gump? Almost, but but without a beard this this particular one was without a beard. But I believe that the record is 43 days, all of those types of events are very impressive and it takes quite the dedication to pull that off. That being said, Would you say that an endurance athlete is more susceptible to probably long term inflammation, and that’s maybe why they’re using someone in that subset to do a study on that is a great lead in because this is exactly what that studies all about. Okay. What they looked at is during long lasting physical efforts, from my standpoint, blood flow is redirected from the GI system to go to other organs, specifically muscles. Now research has shown that athletes Training endurance disciplines are vulnerable to abdominal pain, nausea and diarrhea. In fact, they showed that almost 70% of people when they interviewed during the race, or immediately afterwards had some sort of gi distress. What is fascinating about this article is they checked the blood levels of a of a molecule called Zombieland, which is an endogenous protein that actually affects the tight junctions and other words, they’re showing that intestinal permeability takes place, otherwise known as leaky gut. This is the first study I’ve ever seen where they’re actually looking at this and checking Zombieland levels. And like I said, almost 70% of these endurance athletes will actually have some sort of issue. It’s not just Oh, it’s annoying. I didn’t have such a good time, you could be setting yourself up for something more. So what they did is they looked at 15 very highly trained triathletes who were competing in the world x Tara championship. They checked blood parameters, baseline pre after 12 hours and 48 hours 48 hours after today. dosterone cortisol CRP which is C reactive protein, which is a nonspecific inflammatory marker, Zombieland and myoglobin. This is what is completely incredible. What they showed is that the cortisol level at baseline on the average was 152. Immediately after like one hour after right 467 and it remained elevated for 48 hours, testosterone, baseline 4.1, it dropped to 2.5.

So you’re depleting your testosterone deplete

your testosterone, okay, CRP went from point one to 3.38. That’s too high, too high. That’s tons of inflammation, and ultimately Zombieland baseline, 25. Post, almost 90. And so what this show does, this is incredible because we’re out there trying to get in shape. And you want to do these cool things and really push your body. But in reality, if you do it all the time, you have to achieve that hormesis you have to back off, let your body recuperate. Right. Now other studies have shown that the physiologic stress markers like cortisol have always been shown. So we know that that’s, that’s the deal. You and I have talked before that not uncommon Lee, we’ll see somebody in the clinic, who’s been a lifetime marathon runner and they end up with a heart attack. Yeah. Like how in the world is that person having a heart attack? Sure, was it turns out, inflammation is bad. And we’re going to talk with the photobiomodulation about inflammation, but we know that inflammation is bad. And we know that inflammation can result in systemic disease. Now, what we’re looking at here is this study was the first one that looked at people showing the intestinal health. We know that leaky gut can lead to autoimmune disease, right? So it’s way more than just inflammatory process. You were talking about these ultra marathoners? There was another study that I noticed that all sudden, I started getting into the weeds with this and I’m like, wow, they looked at this with other people. Sure. So I found a study that looked at racewalkers. What they do is they do 152 mile Walk as fast as you can, okay, and 152 mile walk, they showed that their CRP jumped 152 times that or jumped 252 times their baseline. So we talked about these marathoners getting heart attacks and stuff like that. And this is even just like fast walking. So we know that all of this can lead to intestinal problems. So this is a perfect reason why we developed something called otra. Until definitely, it definitely is, so are drawn to is composed to polyphenols, what we do know is that these polyphenols help repair your body after you go through something really serious like that. A recent study just showed that if you do the Mediterranean diet for four days before a high before an endurance event, you can blunt those responses actually, because the polythene all the same ones and I’ll try and he’ll actually go into your body, your colonic bacteria, break them down into what are called post biotics and it decreases the status systemic inflammatory response. Not only that, for sports performance, it increases nitric oxide and gets rid of reactive nitrogen species and reactive oxygen species. So that makes total sense why most of my triathletes when we get them on I’ll try until they start feeling better. I don’t want to cram too much together but you know, with all trying to we’ve also talked about the, the occasional issues of Zombieland and how that’s affected the gut as well. So it sounds to me like somebody who is a long term runner, if you actually are experiencing inflammation. Okay, let’s let’s go back. Let’s back up just a step. Somebody who is a long term runner of over time they started running probably to get in shape because they enjoy the sport, but they sometimes get to a point where they’re like, you know, I’ve been running and I eat okay, but I still can’t quite lose. This last amount of body fat usually pointed their abdomen. There’s a little bit saved there but inflammation you turns into a little bit of extra abdominal fat. And when somebody who is chronically inflamed, feels like they’re doing the right things and eating the right things, but not noticing that they are actually keeping themselves in a cycle of inflammation. It’s not necessarily that maybe they need to stop the sport altogether. But possibly they could add some things to their diet, to their sleep patterns to anything to allow their body to simply recover. When you say, Oh, 100% so one of somebody that I respect tremendously, who was actually my chiropractor, Dr. Ron, tremendous, elite triathlete trains, other pro triathletes. And he has a podcast and I think their Instagram handle is recover with a purpose and cover with a purpose. He’s not out there saying run more and so when I went and I saw him, you know, his recommendation to me was slow down. Right good break. Yep. It’s like you’re, you’re you know, and that’s it’s hard to do because I was doing the same thing where I’m like, I’m trying to run faster. I want to I’d like to compete sometimes. And that kind of thing, and it was just slow down. So as it turns out, you think you might be doing things or I believe in exercise. But I also have learned as I’ve gotten older that you cannot short chain sleep, never to exercise, because all you’re doing is increasing these inflammatory markers and these hormones. And it’s like, you’re, it’s like you’re, you know, you’re basically running uphill the whole time. And you’re just hurting yourself.

Well, just a side note for the current listeners. If you are interested in picking up some odd Tron teal, and especially for you ultra marathoners, if you want to decrease your inflammation, and hopefully, you could write to us and tell us about your new PR personal best. Go to love my tummy.com forward slash spoonie use the discount code spoonie and save yourself a little bit of money.

Yeah, for real. So this this whole article was all about sports performance. And when I said that they looked at the Mediterranean diet. It wasn’t just that they decrease the markers. Do you know that these people actually improved their times? All of them had across the board at 6% improvement.

But what’s the same? What’s the thing that’s in the Mediterranean diet that you have said is is basically the power horse behind? All 20? Oh,

yeah. So if you’re listening to this, it’s really important that we spread the message that if you’re an athlete do this, but also by going to love my tummy.com forward slash forward slash spoonie. You’re supporting this network, you’re supporting chef Patrick and everybody else is trying really hard to do this. And you know, this is we’re just trying to get the message out there. Like we’re going to talk about PDM

definitely gonna talk about PBM. That is photo bio modulation. Actually, what I was asking you for a while ago, it’s gonna tell you remember how we said mistakes, make opportunities, I get to say something. The thing that’s ubiquitous in the Mediterranean diet is polyphenols. And that’s what’s jam packed in our Tron teal.

So I give a lecture where there’s a researcher out of the UK, another UK person, probably James’s neighbor. Yeah, it probably is. So James is neighbors Dr. Boat well, oh yeah, she did a whole analysis of this that if you take 1000 milligrams of polyphenols three hours before competitive event, yep, you actually decrease muscular damage and increase nitric oxide increasing blood flow to the muscles. How do you get 1000 milligrams you can eat five bowls of cherries, which is a lot a lot of fructose, a lot of fructose, or you can take two doses of electron to

definitely and yeah, I met Dr. Joe Votel and she’s from Exeter University and was sponsored by I believe it was Gatorade labs, and that has nothing to do with Gatorade they simply allow her to do polyphenol research she came back with some incredible information at long word pro anthocyanins Am I saying that correctly

pro anthocyanins

so that is basically what she said if we could find a way to deliver that and that just so happens to be what Tron teal is. So you can take four capsules of pro anthocyanins also known as altran teal and protect your

I love it. Holy cow. We just I just rambled mostly I apologize for that. But I get geeky man, thanks for apologizing. We’re all really kind of a

tip. I love this stuff. It’s good time. Hey, everybody, we’re going to be back in the next half hour with an amazing guest all the way from the UK Dr. James Carola go laser.

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We are now joined here at the gut check project with your host, Kenneth brown MD, along with James Carroll who drove all the way from London, which we didn’t know you could do.

Where’s your microphone? The cool thing in London there it is.

Yeah. Is it working? You tell me what

So we are going to fill some time here while we plug in the microphone

while we were there unbreak I did while we’re getting your microphone ready, I found an article same thing. Photo bio modulation and human muscle tissue and advantage in sports performance. Wow. Oh my goodness I try and seal and photo bio modulation hand in hand to improve athletic performance.

Well, so just a small delay while we bring James Carol on with us just a moment we are getting his microphone plugged in. But in the meantime, we did leave the last half hour talking about endurance athletes, better recovery, talked about using polyphenols in order to make that happen. And now what we are learning is you can also use other therapies in conjunction with that that would be poly phenol such as an ultra until we didn’t touch on it last time but there’s also a lot of athletes who’ve turned to CBD and great CBD oils to do the same What we’re going to learn today I believe we can get CBD By the way, oh the little place called kBm D health. You can also go to KB m d health.com. And go to the store and you will find your very own first ever physician approved. CBD here. And what do you know, to my right, actually is Mr. James Carol of Thor laser?

Like I said, we get he only spent 10 days in the US. Yeah, her month. He’s given one of them to us. Yeah, definitely appreciate it. Thanks for coming

by. Thank you for having me. So back to what I asked you. You said that you drove all the way from London is that correct? Yeah,

Chitty Chitty Bang Bang you know, can fly can float and drive.

Well didn’t take long to get that British sense of humor. I

know. It’s out Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. It only took us three seconds. You

don’t have them here.

Oh, no. Well, not like you do. It doesn’t get referenced quite that quickly. Oh, they’re asking for your microphone to be closer. Just a little bit closer. There. Yeah. There we go. Nice. Well, So, James, tell us a little about your history. Dr. Carol. Mr. Carroll, what’s the correct I’m Mr. Carroll, Mr. Carroll. Okay. So when I’m James, James, so James, you are the founder and CEO of door lasers. So tell us a little bit about your history leading up to the the founding of Thor laser in there, we’ll get into what it’s all about.

Okay, can I turn that around and tell you what it is first and then I’ll tell you how I got there. You can do however you want. Okay. So photobiomodulation is something that’s been on TV and particularly Star Trek and but most science fiction movies seem to do something like this. When when somebody gets injured a doctor approaches you with a laser beam aims the laser beam at the injury and the injury heals and the tissues regenerate instantly. So we make those

so Star Trek just came to life right here in the studio.

So did you produce you made those that they used on the Star Trek set is what you’re saying that

we make them we make them hospitals but it’s not As instant as on TV, so the idea is still the same thing. You shine light on people and they get better more quickly.

Okay? They shine light and by light you you mean?

Well, it’s a particular kind of light.

Okay? So no, not a flashlight?

No. So it’s monochromatic light meaning light of one color. Okay. And if you have light to the right colors, we’re going to say wavelength because we do use light outside of the visible spectrum. So we have light at the right wavelength and if it is that the right intensity, and if we use it for it in the right place, of course for the right amount of time, then you can speed up the quality or I can improve speed and quality of tissue repair and reduce inflammation. edema goes down the lymphatic system gets very busy. When you put this on and with a particular high dose, you can induce analgesia.

That is something we’re going to definitely touch on here in a moment because I want to talk well, you got a story that you’ve shared with everyone else and we’ll get to that. So what what drew you in to say, I saw that on Star Trek. I see people healing from lasers. I want to be a part of it and This one

Well, I gotta tell you how this was discovered because it wasn’t discovered by me. Okay, so, back in the 60s when the first laser was invented and working by by about 1960. By 1967, a scientist wanted to find out if maybe this new Ray, that laser Ray, it might cause cancer. So he wants to do an experiment. So he takes us some take some mice, he shaves the hair from their bodies, he divided them into two groups. He puts a low powered Ruby laser beam on one group and not the other to see if the treatment group would develop cancer. Okay, they didn’t. And to his surprise, the hair grew back more quickly on the treatment group. And then on the untreated group. So he called that laser bio stimulation, and that was 1967. But it’s back in Budapest, Hungary. So this is in those days, Hungary was part of sort of the, you know, the Iron Curtain behind the Iron Curtain controlled by Russia. The news didn’t come out very quickly, because back in the 60s, we weren’t great friends with the Russians. Unlike now, right. We’re Of course, we’re

We’re going to send you over to Mojo five point O. Political station.

So they

discovery. I got involved in 87, I was part of a business that was helping small businesses get hold of government grants. And one of our customers was a laser company and I went to a meeting at a Research Hospital in London called guys hospital. And there they were showing off what they’ve been doing on small animals with lasers and how it was healing up wounds more quickly. And when I saw that, I thought, well, that’s the future. There’s going to be one of these in every department of every hospital in the whole world. Within five years, this is going to be massive. And I thought that in 1987, that’s incredible. Well, I was wrong wasn’t I didn’t take five years and we’re still not there. Right. So this is now my 32nd year in this field.

3032 years of trying to get the message out basically something that you’ve been They can help people that you have seen help people.

Yep. And we’re getting there now. So there’s been over 700 randomized placebo controlled clinical trials published in this field. There’s over 4000 laboratory studies looking at the mechanism of action and the dose response. And it’s about 30 new papers coming out every month in this field. Yet most doctors have never even heard of it. There are systematic reviews published in The Lancet and the British Medical Journal, for example, some of the leading journals in the world. And last in the UK, our national health, National Institute of Health and care excellence, now recommend this treatment in our hospitals in the UK for the treatment of the side effects of high dose chemotherapy radiotherapy. So one of the side effects is you lose all the skin inside your mouth, you develop this alteration. And it’s really painful and it’s so bad that a lot of people want to give up their cancer treatments, because it’s so severe. And what we know is that this treatment, as demonstrated in 40 randomized control clinical trials will basically either prevent or reduce the incidence and severity of oral mucositis in cancer patients. And now it’s a recommended treatment in the UK. And in the US Blue Cross Blue Shield have just started reimbursing for in some regions for this trim as well.

That’s fantastic. That’s incredible. So when they treat these patients with mucositis Do you accept that shine the light in the mouth?

Traditionally, yes. So the historically what people have been doing is taking a single red laser beam and poking around the mouth so they treat over their tongue dorsal lateral borders, ventral tongue floor of the mouth, get to the buckle tissues of the inside of the cheeks, get to the hard palate, soft palate and treat individual spots there, maybe do 20 points to try and reduce incidence and severity. We’re now working on Sunday with Harvard where we’re developing an extra oral treatment meaning outside the mouth, treating through the cheeks, to the gets the buckle tissues to prevent it and methods and this is a treatment for children.

One quick question trying to get the word out there. Is it similar to like what we have to do with our supplement where you really can’t make disease claims? You can’t say a disease state? Or because it is a device? Are you able to say no, we use this for you, Chris is induced chemo or chemotherapy induced mucositis.

Right. So there’s FDA codes for different devices, which have they say what you can say so most people don’t realize the FDA, regulate marketing, that’s their primary job. Okay, so and I don’t know about the device with your cbds. And what I’ve no idea what the rules are around that but with devices they need to see what you can do. So we’ve been, you know, was, I suppose 2030 years ago, the FDA will hostile to this as a as a form of light therapy. Somebody twisted somebody’s arm and they’ve really relaxed the definition of a heat lamp. They’ve Even created a new category of heat lamps called the non heating, heating, lamp.

Heating, heating. That’s right.

Which is a loud bureaucrats

icecube

or you know what, like, seeing all those hamburgers and McDonald’s you’re like that’s a non heating heat lamp right there. hamburgers, room temperature

burgers just like dad used to make.

So anyway, there are some categories now with this product product can be sold with very limited indications and the broadest one is an IOI category which is basically based on heat lamp. But now you go It doesn’t have to be infrared, you can use visible red, and it doesn’t actually have to heat either. But they’ve a broaden this that they’ve really relaxed it and allows this technology on. And I do happen to know and I don’t think it’s top secret that the FDA are working to develop her photobiomodulation code. That’s great moment. It will be a real thing as well. FTS concerned already the National Library of Medicine the people who run PubMed, and PubMed, have developed a MeSH term and Medical Subject Heading for photobiomodulation. So as far as the National Library of Medicine is concerned, this is a real thing. The FDA is going to get there, they’re not too far behind them, then there’ll be an official category. Not quite what you can say about it. We don’t know yet. We don’t know what they’re going to this the bottom word is approved, they don’t approve most technologies. I don’t know when the if the approval ever exists, but within our category of products, they clear products for marketing. That’s the category. That’s how you’re supposed to express it. So it’s FDA cleared for and in our case, we go with the infrared heat, the old heat lamp version, which is temporarily for muscle and joint pain, and bringing the blood flow and something else I can’t remember the detail, but it’s long and allows us basically to claim pain relief.

It sounds like that he has somewhat of the same battle that we do whenever we have a supplement that we can actually put proof behind in the literature. Is is the way that I best interpreted the altruistic version of what the FDA is to do is to protect the public from things that could cause them harm. So that’s but that’s the, that’s the version that they want you to stop it, I think that there’s also an agenda into that. And that is, if you’ve run the rigmarole of somehow being blessed as a medical drug, or a medically approved device, well, then you can make the claims regardless of what your study says, as long as it’s not hurting someone but even if you have something it’s completely natural or something that’s safe and benign, like, like light treatment can be they don’t necessarily want to extend that same opportunity to you and you almost always have to talk about the symptoms around a disease or or an issue versus saying we help here which is the opposite in Canada.

Yeah, it’s totally so in Canada, we’re when we got our NP and number and it was funny because we sent them everything that says on this box, which is occasional discomfort, like no no what’s the disease that you guys Fixed, we’re like, well, in Canada, we fix irritable bowel syndrome. Like good say that. And it’s very, it’s very different. Like, we have the

same thing and what can we say in UK so we have a CT mount in Europe. And you when you when you put your product on the market after a long document have to work with clinical evaluation report, and that’s obviously examined, and we move able to make claims about joint pain tendinopathy, we do back and neck pain we do, or mucositis, right, and it’s very clinical, and then you stay what range you want, they examine your data, and then you let it let you put it on the market with those claims, and that’s we’re much more specific in we can be much more specific in Europe than we are in the US. We’ve got this vague term about temporarily for muscle and joint pain and arthritis and whatever else. However, it’s something along those lines.

A couple small things when I very first heard about Thor laser and photobiomodulation or PBM is is Ken has already made it as a part of his everyday vernacular.

Yeah, this is, yeah, it is not PBR. Remember that

you Non Stop professional bull riding

Blue Ribbon,

but PBM llt or triple lt photobiomodulation. Door laser? What is the best term to simply say that because I believe that lll take, it also means led always

works, right? Yes. It’s had 79 different names over the years, which makes it very hard to pin down. Sure people keep inventing their own names, possibly because they want to have their product somehow be hard, you know, when they when they tell somebody what it is, and they Google it, they only get that product. So there’s been a lot of invention of new terms. And I don’t know why some scientists keeps wanting to they maybe have some, you know, we’ve got transcranial low level laser therapy, and therefore what’s true when they’re tweaking the brain, then yes, it’s going through the brain, but actually, they’re making it harder for everybody to find my keep coming up with nuanced versions of the original name or Trans Can you turn your photobiomodulation but then they call it T small t PBM therapy or something like that No virtual PBM therapy, you don’t get the one, all the ones with the T in front of it don’t you don’t see. So

well nomenclature aside, when I after I learned about the different names and began to look it up what I was blown away is by is a lot of what you just referenced earlier and there are tons of articles within PubMed about the oral mucositis some of these that stood out to me where the for chronic nonspecific low back pain, the European Society for medical oncology says that they’re reducing the mucositis, a World Health Organization back in 2008.

Yep, said that. It is now recommended for neck and back pain. That’s not nothing that’s significant. Well, the reason why I was so excited to have you on when he brought it up, the study that I found was a rat study where they induced arthritis in these rats treated one group with PBM and the other one And then they they euthanize done and they looked at it on a microscopic level and I pulled Eric over. I was like, Dude, this is real. Like there’s cellular stuff going on here. This is not, you know, because there’s so much like marketing and people are changing stuff. What I want to know what is super fascinating is you discovered this in 87. And you clearly have something that you are you found something that the rest of the world needs to learn about. been there since 1960. Spock was using it

as playing Spock was a Vulcan bellows the doctor.

You’re actually not old enough? Yeah,

they will know I’m definitely old.

Yeah, really bad names. Horrible.

As somebody who’s also an entrepreneur, and you’re the owner and CEO and you work your tail off, what happened 1987 Can you just give us a synopsis and on on your life and career to get here in front of us?

Well, just for anybody holding out for a great degree or anything, I’ve got the same level of qualifications as Steve Jobs Bill Gates and Richard Branson.

What do they do? Exactly?

So there’s there’s it basically I have no degree I left school at 16 with no qualifications. And now I teach Harvard Medical School professors

nice. Well, that’s where that happens. Yeah, it doesn’t.

So, I left school to 16. I was in a bin in a rock band. I knew how to make a fuzz box in the Walmart pedal and an amplifier and I knew how to connect these things up. So I knew I wanted to be in electronics. When I left school, I called you know, we used to have this thing called Yellow Pages, remember them. And I called up electronics company and that was, you know, 20 minutes trademark right away and said, I want to be an apprentice designing in a they made radio stations, so and TV and audio equipment for TV studios. So I wanted to work in there and I asked him for a job and they said come over, and sure enough, they could tell it I knew a lot already about it and they want to get my enthusiasm. So I went out there and I did study some electronics and college failed. College and famous second year twice, but I still do well in Canada got all the promotions running departments. And so that’s my six years in that then I helped a friend run a sports car restoration business thing old sports and classic cars from the 60s and 50s. That burnt down under-insured to go back to work run another test department and electronics company making Transformers for satellites. Just one some money. They sold out and the bosses the lessons you’ll never make money as an engineer. He says you kind of have to learn how to do some sales. So took a job at Pitney Bowes didn’t do too well. But anyway, learn how to do some sales. And then bought a franchise of friends held government ground information. We had this laser company as a client. I thought, as I told you, this is fantastic. This is going to be in every department of every hospital in the whole world sure in five years, so I left to get an upsell for that laser company. They went out of business a few years later. So I started my own with two engineers who are Working for that company and that will well till 2005 and then those days it was yellow pages again you look up physiotherapist or something and get call them and make an appointment say can I show you my new toy? Right so we sold them like one of the time like that. And I would travel the UK on a motorcycle with lasers on the bat sending these things door

to door that’s just like that movie

with Will Smith the pursuit of happiness. Yeah with the with the bone scan machines, right?

Yeah, what I don’t know that one is fascinating because all I heard was that didn’t work that failed that Brendan under-insured that didn’t work. It just keep going. This is the whole thing of the improv. There are Let’s

keep going. This is

right so well. 2005. I came over here. So then the the joint project with the Navy and the FDA, they bought some lasers from us. And I went to a conference over there to see what they were doing with it. And they were healing spinal cord injuries and rats. So I start with this is going to be much bigger than I realized I thought for my first voltages healed wounds, and then I could see it was helping physiotherapist on sports injuries, pts economy. And so I thought go back to my partners and say, Hey, we have to write a plan, we’re going to raise some money, the world’s going we’re going to get overtaken by Siemens and Philips and other companies like that, because we’re too small. We need money. We need to do this properly. And they said, don’t do that. VCs, they’ll take over your company, they’ll probably fire us and anybody else who’s any good, they probably even crashed the company at the end. I said, Well, I’m not waiting around for you. I’m leaving. I’m gonna start my own business. started writing a plan. They called me a few weeks later says come back. nobody’s buying from us enemy will do it your way. I wrote the plan, raise some money. They brought some new management in, and we were bankrupt within 18 months. Five. Everybody was good. They were totally right. So again, that was where we got we raised the money in 2006. And we were dead by by late 2007.

Oh my gosh, this is this is why I love Having real entrepreneurs on that just keep grinding it out. People don’t realize that you went through all of this shit to get where you are. Yeah.

Well, he’s obviously you obviously believe in what is it? You really don’t need to believe it’s it’s it’s hard evidence published in some of the leading medical journals right, you know, no belief required.

You’re not in the technology. Sorry, I do apologize. But in the belief in the idea of the company that you can elevate that because this is a fantastic technology. It’s a mission.

Sure, I know. I’m quite clear the court the court permission is to heal and relieve pain, right really simple vision is that will be in every corner of every department of every hospital in the whole world. And I’ve got a goal of having this therapy established as a first line medical treatment for 100 different diseases in 100 different countries because have different rules and each country by the time I’m 100 years old, so that’s by May 720 62, which makes me nearly 57 years old now. So gives you an idea. So I’ve got 200 and then I’m taking a 20 Year holiday

Well, we, we are going to talk on some of the specific cases. But I do know we only have about seven minutes left in this half hour, but there are different wavelengths, you use two variants of data meters for red, and then you have blue and green. Is that correct? Now we use blue and green, don’t use blue and green people

kind of do. And I can talk to that when I’m sure like,

Oh, yeah, no, no, that’s fine. Because

people want to why What does why like, why did you use this weapon? Why not another one mind waiting for the new one or something like that. And I can, I can address all of that.

Oh, really, what I was going with is you use different lights because through the research, you found that through intensity, you know whether the depth of the tissue that you’re going to affect with the light that you’re going to use, y’all built in protocols through your research that you know, this particular light in this particular setting requires this particular type of therapy.

Right and it’s the therapy windows quite broad and sure you can achieve the same effect with different wavelength, okay? And within a certain range and similar intensities, it’s not a narrow, it’s not like a cliff edge. And if we’re off by an animator, it’s not going to work or even up by 10 nanometers, it’s not gonna work, there’s actually quite a quite a broad spectrum. And it’s not entirely clear yet. So now we’re going to get into the detail a bit of it. That when it’s if it’s ever any better to use red or near infrared light, and less penetrations an issue if you want to get to a deep third target that’s centimeters deep you like and really not going to get much beyond an inch of penetration. No matter what you’re saying, if we had a whiteboard here, I’d start drawing is why you get sort of diminishing returns and inverse square or what happened when like scatters and gets absorbed. But really 30 millimeters is about the limit. If you can measure light at four and five centimeters deep, we would have done it but it’s extremely low levels. And you think well why don’t if you turn up the power by you know, by Hundred percent. If I double the power, do I get double the depth? And the answer is absolutely not. You don’t, you get double the intensity, right? So you get double the intensity of light on the surface. Let’s imagine you’re three centimeters deep. And let’s imagine it’s like, point 1% of what was on the surface, something’s gonna be like that. Then point 1% of this magic was one what per centimeter squared? Well, you’ll have point 1% of double the power three centimeters deep, but it’s still double, almost nothing. It’s just so people don’t mistake power, doubling power for doubling penetration. It doesn’t right, double intentional surface just give you double the intensity at three centimeters deep, but hasn’t but it’s two is double of almost nothing. You haven’t really gained anything.

I want to completely geek out on this, but I want to finish with your career because now tell us about Thor and like how where you’re at in how I mean? how big it is, are you I think is with all these. You overcame all these obstacles. And now where are you at?

So we’re in million dollar business as at the end of last year, we’re on a run rate so far this year as 12 million. We’re 35 people were assaulted 72 different countries. I’ve lost count of me systems, it must be about 6000 systems installed around the world, mostly to what we call irrationally committed healers who have wandered off the map and like buying toys. So

irrationally, what

irrationally committed healers, these are actually committed. In other words, they, these are committed healers, who are so interested in making the patients better. And they say that’s it. That’s what I want. I want one of those. Send me one of those send me the bill or whatever it is, and they buy one before they figure out how they’re going to make any money with it. Right? So they’re irrationally committed healers, okay. And these are usually private medical practices across the world. We do have privileges in the UK as well. And Australia and Canada, mostly New Zealand, which our main markets But anyway cross Europe Middle East as well the the the irrationally committed healer so there are people who think about healing patients before they think about the money right and not that they don’t make money with it they do it because usually quite entrepreneurial as well and not the got the not on a kind of got blinkers on like in the career path that says you know I just don’t want to get sued today and and if I keep if I don’t I don’t want to go outside the norm such that my my my head of department doesn’t give me a promotion or whatever like that but he’s These are people who are just out for their patients. And that’s all they’re focused on not their careers. And they Yes, they will make money and they may make or may not make career progression maybe doesn’t help with career progression. I know plenty people whose careers of not being involved in this is inhibited their careers. I’m sure it happens with your CV DS as well as probably medical people who are shunned by others who said How could be getting involved. That’s crazy stuff. But yeah, so in our field it’s the rational community. Those who’ve wandered off the map. They don’t stick to just what they learned in school. But they probably they’ve taken a look at acupuncture. And they’ve taken a look at some other therapies. They said they got broad minded. And then they want to that’s wandering off the map of their career. And then they like buying toys. So

wandering off the mat, though is to me it’s very endearing. It just simply means that you’re open to to realize that you don’t know all the answers.

You know, James, our goal with this show, and what what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to bridge the gap, and we’re trying to look at these things, take some of this irrational in enthusiasm and science it up, go, No, it makes sense. Now, look, we need to start reevaluating this kind of thing sort of bridging the gap between these two worlds. That’s kind of our goal.

Within our field, we’ve reached the highest levels of evidence, these like people like systematic reviews, and then published in The Lancet in the British Medical Journal, I mean, doesn’t get much better than that. These things and still, the barriers are there. You can get the signs. There are criticisms of our science like Lot of the data was it’s there. And it’s in systematic views. They didn’t publish in high enough Impact Factor journals. There’s always a reason why not, it seems to me. We’re now teaching in medical schools. We’ve got, we’ve actually got research project running and 51 medical schools around the world now. So and this is where I think it works. You got to get into this, they gotta learn this at school. Right? That’s how we’re going to that doesn’t mean there’s 1020 years before they are in a decision making position. could be maybe not 20. But certainly, we need it. We need people leaving medical school with this as part of the toolbox. And that’s what working and we’re working with a political level now as well. I gave a congressional briefing back in November. Did you see that?

I saw that on YouTube.

Yeah, dude. Yes. So we’ve done a congressional briefing. And we’ve now got somebody active full time around Capitol Hill, working with insurance companies, working with politicians, trying to persuade them that we need more money from NIH to do the kind of research they say they want to see, to fund it all and to change minds. At the highest level,

we’re gonna be awesome. We’re gonna continue this in the next half hour. With there’s plenty of opportunity. Door laser.com back with James Carroll here in just a moment.

This is the only 24 hour take anywhere platform dedicated to food and fun. We’re spoonie

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Okay, we’re back.

It is now the second hour of gut check project episode number five we are joined with CEO and founder of Thor laser. James Carol all the way from London and of course your host Dr. Kenneth brown of gastroenterology MD health if you want to see what this laser looks like and what James Carroll looks like, go to our Instagram at kBm de health and you’ll see we do post little video yesterday, he took the time out of giving a lecture to show me the actual booth, the laser booth bright, pretty cool, neat stuff. Very read

the whole body one, though. I mean, that’s not a laser. We use a lot of making guides for that one. But yes, we’ll get into that two different website says that’s no very thorough.com. And I

know both or never thought that come in.

So that last half hour, I loved hearing your story, you overcoming all this stuff? Clearly there’s tons of data there tons of literature. Why haven’t Why hasn’t someone like me? heard about it until just recently?

Because it’s not reimbursed?

That’s the bottom line. It is.

So it would help also with I mean, that is the bottom line. I mean, the all these cancer centers that we’re dealing with, would love to be using it tomorrow. If only it was reimbursed. So that is the probably was his major priority for us.

Do you need an insurance code basically here in the States? Yeah. Yes, y’all have it in other countries?

No, we’re not in the UK, we have national health service. So it’s on the National Health Service for cancer patients. It’s just not over here yet because of the way the system works.

Okay. What about another kind of a social program that may be comparable to the UK? Because if I remember correctly, I think I overheard, you’ve been working with the VA here stateside.

Is that correct? That’s right. So we made a light helmet. So if you can imagine an American football football helmet, imagine that with full of light emitting diode led bright red ones, and you stick this thing on your head, and it shoots light into the brain.

What is it you’re trying to accomplish with light helmet for the veterans?

So Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and whatever cover any other cognitive problems related to concussion and traumatic brain injury.

Do you think you did Thor laser with this helmet would be it’d be beneficial to understand correctly to help people with a concussion protocol. Absolutely. CTE protocol. Absolutely. Okay, so Okay, what kind of evidence Have y’all had with that so far? Cuz that’s, that is definitely a hot topic and CTE. Oh my gosh.

We’re gonna have one of our guests coming up. I don’t know when we actually have it scheduled, but Colonel Paul Blair. Oh yeah. He works with Alex and all the company that supplies our CBD. He’s done a ton of research on PTSD and traumatic brain injury. I think there’s a lot of synergy using these lights and CBD and gut health, all of it. Right, fascinating. I’m

just gonna have a look in Sonoma, which is my my database here. As you can see, it says toggle.

Yeah, you have your life search way. But yeah.

It’s not it’s not public. And I’m just going to

go so this is only photobiomodulation research on this on this thing here. And yeah, I just typed in brain how many studies we got on treating the brain with like

295 285 complete populations

been published in peer reviewed medical journals. That’s fantastic. Yes. So it shows what it does to reduce Basically oxidative stress and increase ATP in the brain, which means things for, for nerve regeneration, so what it does for cortical neurons. Sure, and then looking at the clinical benefits of that with us for BDNF brain derived neurotrophic factor. And so it helps the brain repair itself. And then a lot of these effects, maybe not do this is the show in animals. And humans were much bigger, it’s harder to get the lightest deep and seems a lot of these effects are just due to improve blood flow as well. It’s still need to know more about how much of its to do with getting light to cortical neurons and how much of it is about getting like just improving blood flow. But between the pair of them, it’s people are getting better. I mean, I’ve It was a, you know, a TV show we will be having, I’ll be showing you data from first patient who’s finished, of course of 18 treatments since we delivered this device. And the change in his post traumatic stress disorder is is is breathtaking.

Well, that’s a lead into actually my follow up question. is have you been able to track anybody to see how maybe they’ve been able to deal with their own personal depression since

funnily enough, I just happened to have a score on that.

I just was looking at that. Yeah. A review on using this the very first one, that if you type in Google Scholar 2017, and the journal reviews and neurosciences the potential of transcranial photo bio modulation therapy for the treatment of major depressive disorder,

yes. So that’s a 21 patient study, Harvard Medical School. It’s, it’s fast. It is extraordinary. It takes my gosh, so I think in that one, they did 18 treatments once, so three times a week for six weeks. It trips that tree from the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, or that’s here and here, here with like a million diodes. And they’re held there for 20 minutes. Both sides, and yeah, it’s the MDD major depressive disorder is the third leading cause of disability in the world

and we’re turning it around

But it goes hand in hand with so many things. Major Depressive Disorder goes along with chronic pain goes along with sleep issues goes along with PTSD. I mean, it is a, it can be the byproduct of so many things or it can be the primary thing that can cause other thing, no job.

So I just sort of bring this up on the screen for you. Yes, exactly the right question this is that whenever your screens feature, I’ll show it to you first, okay, not turn around and others can see it. Alright. So first of all, self rating of cognitive behavioral and emotional function difficulties here. Look at this dramatic drop in a simpler there. So and there’s a there’s, this is the celebrating one. This is a retired NFL

player.

Yes, emotional outbursts here. So as it says down here, a reliable decrease is 10 to 20 points. He has a 40 point drop. After a course of 18 treatments. This is one week, follow up one month follow up on there. And I’ll just turn that around so that one of your cameras can maybe pick up on that you’ll be able to zoom

zoom up on it. So,

which one because this is absolutely incredible.

I’ll let you narrate

this one over here. Don’t get too close it because it’ll you’ll lose the focus back further away.

Still not focus, yeah,

get why it’s not out of focus,

I’d have to come in there and refocus the camera.

And then

they’ll see the line. I mean, they can’t read the detail, but it’s there and the people that they looked up this

this isn’t one individual. So who was the first person to complete a course of 18 treatments? So

this is incredible. So potentially we’re talking about anybody who would have concussive issues it could be any athlete obviously football players but now when you’re talking about road traffic accidents, road traffic accidents falls, yeah, VA people who’ve been subject to to combat

down Absolutely. But even beyond that, you looked at emotional outbursts. Yeah, yeah, my staffs gonna want one of those.

What’s going on?

Got it? Did I answer your questions?

No. I mean, I think you more than answer the question. It’s just impressive that we’ve got a technology that you are intimately familiar with. Literally, four months ago, I had just never heard of it. Right. Wow, what a cool picture. Yeah, I’m gonna just say, for the listeners do on a gut check project calm as you can see, if you have video right now you can kind of see this cool helmet looks like a football helmet with a bunch of red lights on the inside. That’s the that’s the apparatus. You’re using them correctly. Yeah, yeah. And so we’ll put all the images and make them available just the same. And of course, if you want to learn more Thor laser.com,

and we do training courses all over the world. So if you go to Thor laser.com look up training. And you’ll see that we do about I suppose 50 trainings a year across the globe. Just yesterday, you were in North Dallas. It’s right. What was the convention? Exactly. It’s the Academy of laser dentistry, okay, so that they’re becoming fans of this too. So the idea is that only so many pathologies that It could be treating they’ll just use it for post operative pain as an alternative to non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs which are not good for you, right? But it works better than insights and it helps you heal as well. And this is the this is the big takeaway message for this was it’s it is an excellent pain reliever and in clinical trials that outperforms non steroidal anti inflammatories, acetaminophen, and opioids. It also helps you heal, which those drugs can actually inhibit healing. So this is a technology which is regenerative and analgesic and anti inflammatory. And so dentists will use it postoperatively but they also treat these people get these real aberrant neuropathic, extremely painful problems, as well that people just don’t have answers for. So I would I personally find most movie feel most moved by is what it can do for people in extreme pain, and how where the drugs barely mask it at all. These are the kinds of things that drive people to suicide, like pota Patrick neuralgia, trigeminal nerve This kind of thing. So this is the fact that we can actually turn these around by actually helping heal. The dysfunctioning nerve is what excites me.

But Patrick Jeff.

Yeah, I was. It’s funny. I was just asking Maria about trigeminal neuralgia. I have a friend David. Allison, he’s in Houston. He’s up early 70s. But he has trigeminal neuralgia. He used to have four to five episodes a day. And if you’ve ever seen this, it’s you basically collapse on the ground, squeeze your head cry. And this is a grown man who was in the military for years and years. He went through two brain surgeries, and the second one causes a stroke. And I was just asking if this is effective, and the only other thing he’s found he has not had a single episode was CBD, a full spectrum CBD, but I think this is a treatment I’m telling you.

That is called the suicide disease.

Oh, there’s some chronic pain is it just wears you down. I was actually talking to a friend of mine just a couple days ago who was a pain doctor. This name’s Dr. Paul Berry. And we were talking he is reevaluated his pain practice because his interpretation of pain, his highest level, it’s your one to 10 scale is dependent on how much pain you’ve actually experienced in your life because you have a reference, right? He said he broke his leg doing something and said, that was my 10. And then he ended up with nerve pain. And that was his new tab was his new 10. And he said, Now I have a whole new respect when I talk to patients Yeah, about what they say their pain is because when you start looking at some of this, like Phantom, limb pain, things that are all nerve related, it is like trigeminal neuralgia, I mean, all different kinds of stuff.

My dad passed from metastatic lung cancer two and half years ago, and the part the suffering that took him down the most was trigeminal neuralgia, and sadly, this was not on the table as an option for him to for him to turn to and only wish that it would have been it would have been fantastic had we Had we known you at the time to have been able to address that but it Patrick’s incredibly correct and I’m sure that you’ve you’ve seen it and can you’re right as well. nerve pain is a killer and that brings it something else I actually had shingles remember four years ago that wasn’t much fun. Have y’all worked with any type of her pedic

Yep, funnily enough that you being psychic well just looking at my screen now.

Let me show you so I’m gonna show it to everyone. I’ll turn it back towards the camera later but just to run this past you guys. postherpetic neuralgia, small Sony 20 patients here mean age of six, nine years mean duration of pain two and a half years. So up to up to eight years in this study, you’re going to get treated twice a week for four weeks. So Group A get treatment twice a week for four weeks down here and their pain comes down. Group B is on a placebo. It’s a cross over trials and now Group B get the active treatment oh well that pain comes down to join group Hey but notice group is not getting

worse day down.

Now this the follow up data At the end of the month of the second month, after the end of the study, they 95% of patients have discontinued all medication. I mean, this is a disease that drives people to suicide, as you’re saying 5% require the reduced dosage of medication, that six month follow up 80% of patients and maintain their reduction in pain and to patients returned to a pain of score or for not require medication and to recover, returned to a pain of six and eight. So obviously, that’s how it’s horrible for them. But most patients here are basically getting a long term relief from this treatment. So

it’s I can only imagine that we’re not using this because it’s highly addictive. The side effects are tremendous in talking about drugs. No.

Exactly. So

it wasn’t published in a great journal. It was published in a laser journal and this is some of the criticism we get for our literature because there are low level laser therapy journals, always medicine journals, that light publishing it. There’s something called publication bias and everybody writing is suspicious that if you publish your data in a journal which is already sympathetic to your field, then they tend to have a poor quality of manuscript review. And therefore, it’s less reliable data it’s considered. So that’s one of the criticisms could we got all this enthusiasm by these irrationally committed healers and they start up associations where they you know, if you come in and say, Hey, I’m curing Zika virus and with and a bowler and AIDS or some they’re going to believe you, right? You know, just because they believe they are they believe in this therapy. And that doesn’t help us really, we need a more skeptical this one we got to publish in High Impact Factor journals that are not in for orientate if your club is it where you want to be going to your cancer paper should be in a cancer journal, not in a low level laser therapy journal. It that’s helps with it. So we got to get in the right journals that will will help us get into guidelines that will help us get reimbursements that will help us be mainstream. We run into this also because you know, I want to be The gastroenterology journals, the most premier ones and it.

And it ends up being a bit of a club where if you know the editors, if you understand that you submit, and a lot of it is driven by the in my industry, the pharmaceutical industry controls those pages, they control what gets in large studies, large randomized, placebo controlled trials that are

the boss now very high as you’re describing, because if you’re a pharmaceutical company, you have

budgets, which are not like anything is going to be in your industry. There’s not presuming there’s not enough money in your industry, possibly to fund these things. Is there a billion dollar maybe there is, I don’t know, CBD or the billion dollar companies. I don’t know. But they if they are, they should be funding the trials that get into these channels. And it would just improve availability for everyone.

That is fascinating though. Now the beauty of this what you’re doing holding the mic and talking about it. We know now in this age of information, you the only people that really that matters, with Or the academic doctors were somebody walking in their office going, look, this is a journal and they looked at it and go, that’s a that’s a false journal reality is people will

say it’s a tier three journal.

Yeah. Number three. And there’s, you know, like it goes all the way down. You can buy your way into any journal. I remember there was a show called Adam ruins everything where he actually submitted a script to a show and got it published in a really low level journal. And they actually published the script.

Yep, of the show. You can pay for it. Yeah, you can buy a way you can pay to play,

but like we’re saying if you have, you know, postherpetic neuralgia, if you’ve got trigeminal neuralgia, then when people talk, they go on forums, they get in these Facebook groups. It has a movement, and you just got I mean, well, you’ve been doing it since 1987. shouting at the rooftops

and that paper I think, was 1992. So you’ve been around a while

you were at the dental conference yesterday. have you all been able to break into possibly like a dermatology group or dermatology conference to talk about

there are this this treatment is alive. Well in dermatology and I don’t go so the its dermatologist in the United States is not what we call dermatology in Britain, okay, what we do in Britain was what you call medical dermatology. In other words, we’re dealing with diseases of the skin if you’re like okay, as opposed to dermatology over here is mostly seems to me about wrinkles and hair removal and breast enlargement or something like but it’s cosmetic surgery and that’s not a world I want to be in. There’s so much misinformation in that field that I mean the truth doesn’t get a chance out there. They’re very excited about what they do with it and it’s alive and well in dermatology. It’s I don’t want to deal with that.

I just got messaged by somebody listening to this right now and they said is one of the reasons is that it’s cost prohibitive to the client that it’s not, it’s

going to depends if you’re talking about if you want a home use device for treating yourself Is it cost prohibitive and the There are devices that you can probably get $400 and there’s devices like our the whole body Nova thing, which is $130,000 $120,000. So if somebody

like one of these irrational practitioners, what what would it cost for a treatment? Typically, if somebody were to go and they just want to see if this is something that they could, that they could pursue, and where can they,

where can they find?

I think most people are doing 100 $250 per treatment. Okay. But I say that’s a fifth Actually, I might say 50 150. Okay, so I think typically in that kind of range, and the Nova Thor website, which is the whole body treatment system, where we get about 100 installations now, there’s a map that you can go find somewhere. We have thousands who use the laser products for laser.com. And there’s a tab which you when you look down, I think it’s under the About Us tab, and it says, find a treatment center. And you write to us, you tell us what your disease or injury is. Whereabouts in the world you live, you just fill in this form. It tells us And then then we’ll shoot you the send you to somebody we know who we think will do a good job for you. So for individualized, we don’t want we haven’t got thousands because you could just say, hey, there’s a treatment center down the street, not realize it’s a dentist, but you’re going for a foot problem, or it’s a veterinarian or something like that. And we haven’t refined them. We know we’ve got to go through our database more carefully. Flow everybody, would you like to be on a website with on a map to be promoted? And then we’ve got basic, we got to call thousands of treatment centers around the world and do that so before can become public. So stateside, you probably range everywhere from medical doctors, medical offices and practices who currently have a thorough laser all the way to calculate. massage therapists have been using it and can I have something to add to my hands

in any of those can be found probably on your locator as long as they’ve agreed to be listed?

We haven’t done this map for most of our products. Okay. So you’d have to just fill in our former will tell you whether or not he said what do you want to have treated and as they say, postherpetic neuralgia tried to neuralgia. We know, and they’re in this city. Well say they need to see this guy.

Well, this is I’m sorry, I just want to say this one thing to anybody that’s listening. This is one of those things, please share this. Because if you know anybody that has chronic pain, and they’re suffering, this is what this is why we have this, we’re trying to find ways to bring hope so that you’re not just sitting there in a room depressed, you know, agonizing over some nerve pain. This is at least an option.

I’ve got a loved one my aunt, and she is 80 years young, and she has recently developed psychotic thing. So she’s begun getting treated by the third laser. And I would say that she was skeptically optimistic. And now she’s she’s booked her follow up treatments because it’s noticeable pain and for her. It really wasn’t a weight around the first treatment delivered results for her that day, which is not what really I expected. It wasn’t what she expected, but thankfully, she had access Do it and she feels she feels much, much, much better.

Right, great. So what’s really cool is you and I have no skin in the game. We don’t we’re not affiliates or anything like that. I’m just looking at the articles. There are so many articles. Well done studies. Even in my field, I just saw one just published in 2019. Photo bio modulation of the micro biome implications for metabolic and inflammatory disease, you say 2019 2019. So it doesn’t get any more recent than last month last month. And I’m not going to look at this and go, Oh, it was published in the lasers and medical science journal. I’m going to look at this and I’m going to read it and see if it makes sense. Right. That makes sense. Then there is some rationale behind it. You just look deeper into it.

Yes. So there are many applications of of the laser itself or the LED. And so we’ve talked about pain. We’ve just now learned that there’s a recent article on the the microbiome We can talk about it in the next half hours probably some of the best takeaway stories and the best applications but what are the different divisions that you want the laser to be available? I’ve I’ve heard of macular degeneration. I’ve obviously we’ll talk about that the next half hour, but macular degeneration obviously we’ve covered pain. We’ve talked about some element of dentistry which will probably get into the next half hour what other avenues to pursue to help alleviate pain and expedite healing.

My favorite three areas my first three targets for so my hundred plan as I call it, the hundred diseases hundred countries hundred years. hundred year old plan. My we’ve mentioned the platform exciters we’ve done that macular degeneration is high on the list and displacing opioids as a treatment for pain is the the other one we’re going for

nice Yeah, but we’ll just go back to my dad he was he was dependent upon a lot of battery and flare ups and that’s, that’s no way to live whenever you’ve got cancer and now you can’t go to the bathroom because you’re having to take too many opioids. So it just be begets at Terrible cycle of I can’t get really, huh so it’s no good.

So if we’re going to do this hundred hundred hundred thing, you’re gonna need a little help. And one of the things we can help you with if you go to love my tummy.com forward slash spoonie you get a coupon to get on to which the molecules that are anti aging, so we need to make sure you make it 200 to help.

Absolutely. I think I need it.

Yeah. But

it’d be interesting to see what we could do to collaborate probably sometime in the future to find out how using different therapies together could actually help us achieve our goals in Ken’s long talked about PTSD and CTE. He’s got a friend who played long term football, and has had close friends of his that unfortunately, CTE got the best of and these he’s got a personal interest Jr. To find out what he can do to serve some of his his colleagues in terms of CTE and improvement.

It should be a first line medical treatment for kids who are playing

Sorry keeps having American football because it’s not football as far as I’m concerned. It’s what you call soccer. Yeah, but yeah, for football.

For Kids playing football. There was a recent if everybody was playing football Yeah. And I don’t know if we talked about that on the first episode or not. But there was a recent journal article that came out where, unfortunately they did autopsies on teenagers who were killed. And they showed that even minimal amount these were all football players, American football players, minimal amount of trauma already started to show inflammation in the brain and scarring in the brain

and get from joking. Anyway, the CTE from jogging riding roller coaster. Maybe that too? Yeah,

yeah. Yeah, we just don’t need to walk around with PBM helmets. Oh, that’s what i times Yes.

sipping on CBD walking around.

And then if we had some at these in these in these headphones, sweating light in our heads, we might, we might take even more sense.

All that makes great sense. Well, look, we got a great last Half Hour this show because we’re going to get into some of your great stories. We got a dental, a tooth extraction store you want to talk about with some analgesia using the laser light therapy. And, of course, we’re just going to wrap up and see what James Carroll has to offer to close up the show.

Love it would seem a bit

Have you done it? You catch a glimpse to yourself in the mirror.

I’m one of those people you don’t want to see naked

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And then that’s what happened. It was great.

Oh, well anyway, so the microphones have been a small issue day but doesn’t happy

accidents, happier just opportunities because while we were there you brought up something super cool. Our friend that we just met last weekend in Utah. Yeah was talking to us a little bit. And James has some experience with us. It is. So

we our friend that we met Kevin introduced us to an issue that we weren’t very familiar with also called the lip edema. And it just so happens that issues of edema and live edema are things that James is quite familiar with and the experiments they’ve utilized before. While he’s getting things set up. Just a reminder, this is the last half hour of episode number five of the get checked project here with your host, Dr. Kenneth Brown, and today we’re being joined by CEO of Thor laser, Mr. James Carol. James, what were you Your your stories that you had to feedback on a demon,

amen. Yeah, pick my cup health. And so the usual routine, I’m gonna show you some pictures, you show reaction on your faces and then I’ll turn around the camera. Alright, sounds good. So this is a, obviously a foot and it’s got a head and ankle sprain here, second degree ankle sprain. And these patients put their foot in a, what’s called a foot volume meter. So it’s above the water. And then out of this pipe, it does, you capture the displace water and that tells you what is captured in that beaker which is calibrated. It tells you how much volume there is in that limb. And of course, if it’s got a demon’s swollen, therefore, hopefully when it goes down, the next time you do it, it’ll show less right as a result. So there that’s how the experiments done. So these are soccer players. They’ve got these second degree ankle sprains and they’re going to get rest ice compression elevation therapies, or Rice’s they call it rice plus placebo or ice present active laser treatment. And the orange bars here show that the greatest reduction in edema over the following 72 hours is the The active laser treatment group, this is significant disease, as you can see, significantly reducing the amount of edema and the limit these patients here, get around to that oops. And I’ve just turned to turn onto a story. So there’s the there’s the foot, for those of you watching on the screen, and then now you can see the put them in the foot volume meter head, which measures displacement of waters tells the volume of the limb. And then here you can just see the grass you won’t be able to see the numbers, but the orange bar compares the volume reduction in lilium. In other words, the reduction of edema in the patients who had the laser treatment versus those who did not have any laser treatment

at all of the measured intervals, you can definitely tell that the laser treatment outperformed everything.

Absolutely. So that standard can now the next one. Maybe you can see it through the screen there. In the distance. What you’re seeing is this is the shoulder I’m just gonna zoom something up here so you can kind of see it a bit better. Yeah, so you got that one there. So that is the clavicle fractured clavicle, okay. And it’s been plated two sets, it’s had surgery they put a plate on the fracture clavicle, them Gonna get sewn up. And then three days later, this patient gets home to his wife who happens to be a dentist uses a product. And this is the scar as a little bit of light on it. And there’s the scar and you can see all the puffy edema around this scar here. And then she gives it a laser treatment, and which you can see down below and hours later, all the edema has gone.

Fascinating.

So this is good at reducing edema.

So this would work. This actually reduces edema in the subcutaneous tissue would would it actually remove from the adipose tissue as well?

I don’t think so. Otherwise, I think we’re all be looking a lot thinner every time we get in. So

I mean, in this situation that we’re talking about, there are certain disease processes where the body will accumulate excess fluid. This isn’t so much that and the one that I really am excited to see if it works on is our friend who this is life. Liberty, liberty, liberty, man. So anecdote. Well, first of all the people who Treat

lymphedema, which after a breast cancer survivor had mastectomy and all they’ve had regional lymph nodes taken out in the arms swells up and it won’t go down because they’ve taken some of the lymphatic system away or there’s fibrosis in the tissues that move the lymph fluid. So that’s a medical condition after breast removal, laughters lymph nodes been taken out for breast cancer patients. So this I’m not going to go through walk through it, it’s bit washed out on the screen, I can see that but there is data that shows that this treatment and as a systematic review in the literature, which confirms that this treatment will reduce the lymphedema and these people who use our product for lymphedema Tell me also works for lip edema.

Wow. Yes.

So that’s anecdotal. I haven’t seen anything published.

We’ll see. This is what’s so fascinating because our friend is desperate. They’ve they, they’re there to that point where people are being blown off. You want to know why a lot of people are turning to functional medicine. And I consider this a fuck I’m a functional medicine what you’re talking about? Yeah, the irrationally enthusiastic Yes, they are. It’s a lot of doctors that have gotten frustrated. I consider myself a functional gastroenterologist convinced open to it. But a lot of people keep going to doctors, and they essentially get blown on. Yes, we got nothing more for you.

Yeah, that’s it. But he said the only course of action for her to take right now that’s been effective apparently only affects females and it usually occurs after a pregnancy is that she has to go and get routine liposuction. And that was what was it. always come back. Yeah, cash. Now, I would love to see it. This one.

This one’s This one’s anecdotal, but it is from people who specialize in lymphedema. So I’m curious, I would love to know and I’d love to connect with treatment center. So either Connect me directly or go through our website and we

could do I would love to do a case report on that. Yeah, I mean, if it works, the changes, such as you live in Austin,

Austin, okay.

So deadfall So I’ll promise the listeners that we would also address macular degeneration

and yes, dry work. There’s two kinds wet and dry AMD, okay. Most people have the the workforce sort of the dry form and it’s untreatable about 10 to 15%. In the United States have patients who have dry AMD.

You know what, so somebody who didn’t graduate from college pretty smart.

Yeah. A lot of a lot of stuff.

I did not know that there was two kinds of macular degeneration.

There’s, there’s also two eyes.

So there you go. So just get the best, the best get shine off the screen. So here’s, here’s four kids in my kitchen. And if you don’t have AMD, you should be able to see them, okay. But if you develop AMD, you begin to lose and it’s not obviously because you’re not close enough. But there is now there is now a bit slightly fuzzy picture in the middle, you lose central vision and you get distortions in your vision as well. So you might see some distortion there. But then gradually as it gets worse you lose contrast sensitivity. You’re welcome. A bit more black and white, you’re losing some of the color sensitivity. And then you begin to develop these blind spots. These is geographic atrophy. And this gets worse until you go blind. And it’s something that happens quite late in life you typically in the 70s, but for some people can begin in their 50s. And what that means is that you don’t, people in that kind of age group do not learn to read Braille. They don’t learn to use white stick, they can no longer drive, they can’t watch TV, they can’t read. This is a really good quality of life lost is horrible for these people. And it’s these people come burden to their friends and family that’s, that’s horrible for them as well. Not just for the family, but for the individual hates being a burden can’t see. losing sight is is is horrific. I remember, I got to know the the Surgeon General of the United States Army, and she was the first woman Surgeon General and she said that when she visited troops back from the Middle East that They’d have limbs blown off on all sorts of wounds and pain and said, but the one thing that was she kept hearing was, if you could, if you could if there’s one thing you could fix for me, could you fix my eyesight not having my eyesight. He said, keep keep all my other injuries, I want my eyesight back. And she said, it’s just terrible that there was no effective treatment for diseases and injuries to the eye. It’s effective. Well, what you’re going to see here is a device, which we make specifically for ophthalmologist to treat the eye in another company that I’m a co founder and investor in called Lumi. Thera calm, lm I, th, th e. Ra luthier.com. We’ve developed a device specifically for off models for treating disease of the eye. And we’ve treated hundreds of patients prior to a clinical trial. We know it works. We’ve seen the visual acuity charts, and now we finished a randomized controlled clinical trials I’ve ever seen my screen, so you won’t be able to read it from there, but they’re gonna get three treatments a week for three weeks and Gonna be second round of treatment at six months as well. And because we couldn’t have a no treatment and we had to have some kind of procedure we did the low dose for versus a high dose and which you should be able to see even on that screen there is that the full proper dose treatment people have improvement in their visual acuity. This is for the dry form, which is untreated, people with am with wet AMD can have injections in the right, right slows progression. So we’ve got our patients in them in four groups, there’s a group which got a high vision, get a full dose or a low dose treatment. And you can see these are improvements in visual acuity on the snellen chart, which you see. So they had three series of treatments up to one month and then we’ve checked their improvement. And then then the seems to improve to three months. And they have a second course of treatment at seven months. But if you stop treatment, it goes away. So and that’s for the high vision group. So they will be early stage AMD late stage MD a slower rate of improvement. If you stop treatment, then it goes away. So people often ask, well how long does this treatment work for? And the answer is, well, there’s two answers. It either lasts forever or you’re going to need continual treatment. If you’ve got a traumatic injury, you’ve, you know, if a bus runs over my foot, and I heal it with my laser light, I’m healed forever. That’s how long it lasts. Sure. But if you’ve got a chronic degenerative condition, like macular degeneration, or like osteoarthritis, or you got Alzheimer’s, another form of dementia, that is always going to come back. So you’ll be on a schedule like this, where you probably have a course of, you know, three trips a week, first, for three weeks, and then you’ll come back again in six months, and probably every six months for the rest of your life.

That’s probably worth for the price of vision.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so somebody just messaged us. What about diabetic retinopathy?

Absolutely, yes. So we haven’t done the RCTs for that randomized control clinical trials. But we know from people use this technology that they have treated this accessory there is a published paper on it. I can’t remember if it’s a placebo controlled trial, but there certainly have been published reports on this.

There’s an unknown theme here, it seems almost as if there is tissue, especially nervous tissue to be repaired, regenerated or protected.

Well, central nervous system disorders don’t heal, right don’t heal very well, right with a lot of scar tissue. Well, we’ve had. So the one thing I wanted to get into which I thought that

I didn’t want to get into it too early. Now I realize, man, this show is flying by running a talk on a solo level What’s going on?

Yes. So there’s maybe seems like there’s probably more than one mechanism. But the mechanism we know best and one we’ve got the most data on is the effect on mitochondria. And specifically where the light gets absorbed in cytochrome c oxidase so for those of you I haven’t studied biology, memory or chemistry, so moving on, let’s go with

that. You haven’t studied anything but

what I want to tell you what I’ve learned, because you know, because I still remember what it’s like to be a lay person with these things. So, you know, every cell in the body has have these mitochondria inside the job of mitochondria. To make the central solar energy called ATP. And they do this by combining the food that we’ve eaten with the air that we breathe. So when we, when we breathe in air, oxygen attaches to hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is carried around the body by these red blood cells or retro sites. And they deliver oxygen through via the bloodstream to every single cell in the body from the tips of your toe to the top of your head. Oxygen gets its way to every cell in the body when we eat food, and we break it down into glucose and fats, and it gets stored glycogen but ultimately gets passed around to every single cell in the body in the form of glucose. And glucose goes through a process and there’s three main steps is glycolysis, where glycolysis breaks down glucose into little bit of ATP, a little bit of energy from that get to ATP from a glucose molecule, but you also get something called pyruvate. pyruvate is then broken down further by the mitochondria. And the job of the mitochondria is first of all this there’s two. There’s two games in there, as the Krebs cycle breaks it down to fA d h and NADH and then the electron transport chain combines ADH and NADH with oxygen to make lots of hydrogen ions that drive ATP synthase. So you make ATP. And that’s my 62nd introduction and my love that we

open the show talking about performance athletes because that’s exactly what a performance athlete uses. They use the Krebs cycle and then producing any DPH. That’s correct.

So, so that’s great when it’s all working, but when we’re sick, and when we’re injured when we’re stressed. And just gradually as we get old, something goes wrong. Our mitochondria start to make a molecule called nitric oxide, which you’ve heard of before most people are aware of and think of it as a good thing. But there’s four different sources of nitric oxide. There’s inducible, nitric oxide synthase, which makes all the bad stuff you don’t want to be around that nitric oxide. There’s neuro nitric oxide, and there’s endothelial nitric oxide, which is what most people learn about.

And it was the one that we always talk about

dilation of vessels. Yes,

right. So well, we’re but I’m talking about another one which most people wouldn’t have learned about called mitochondrial nitric oxide. Yeah. It has been known to regulate the production of ATP. And what it does is it binds to the terminal enzyme electron transport chain cytochrome c oxidase and basically blocks consumption of oxygen and it seems that under stress and hypoxia, our cell our mitochondria make too much of this. It blocks respiration, such that the I mean, normally, NADH is combined with oxygen inside qmc oxidase, two electrons get handed off the end of the electron transport chain. But when it’s blocked, this process stops. The electron transport chain becomes constipated. And that’s when you start to make superoxide and hydrogen peroxide these are the free radicals. Can you say that last part one more time. When we said when if if circumstance is blocked by nitric oxide and oxygen can’t get in, and it can’t combined with NADH and the electrons don’t get handed off the end of the electron transport chain. Then your electron transport chain is now constantly the electron flow stops. That’s when you start to make super oxide and hydrogen peroxide which are the free radicals which are the oxygen free rent, start the processes of inflammation and sell they’re fascinating trigger your genetic weaknesses. So it’s and they have an effect on if we to get into the gene transcription factors like NF Kappa b translocating to the nucleus and how that starts inflammation. But anyway, the the point here is that one of the mechanisms that we know something about is how whenever we put light we do sell studies, we put light on cells, and you see this flash of nitric oxide come out as it releases it from the cell. And then you get this increase in ATP and ultimately a reduction in oxidative stress the free radicals that start inflammation and cell death

to summarize, basically, what you’ve said is your been able to demonstrate that utilizing your therapy you’ve been able to dis displace the nitric oxide, which is preventing our normal mitochondria which are trying to produce energy for ourselves. they’ve not been able to do it. And so this line is allowing that mitochondria now to work for us.

Yes, he seems to restore mitochondria mitochondrial function. So I’d have to say that we need this more There’s more work to be done in here and exactly understanding these processes. Why? What the role of nitric oxide Northwest and ATP, we know they’re all joined up, you see this nitric oxide come out, we see a blip in our airways afterwards, but it comes back down below baseline in stressed inflammatory cells. This is a, there’s a lot of concepts come out for your audience. And if they’re not well enough, and I know we just we just lost a lot of people.

That’s right, because you said it the last half hour. This is the part that I was super excited about. Because we talked about this all the time, we talked about the polythene, all being broken down by your own microbiome, into post biotics, which can produce things like euro within your olefins a molecule that causes my toffee G. My toffee G is when old and sick mitochondria go, and I’m done. I’m just gonna die, right? And what we’re talking about here is no they they don’t have to die. You just need to clean them out a little bit. So changing the air filter, let’s unblock this and let it start running again. Because that’s all mitochondrial they’re just powerhouses so we do everything. We can houses but

they also have a lot of important signaling qualities as well. And they are the things that where they are where your free radicals come from for dysfunction mitochondria is a problem. It’s a powerhouse. And but when things go wrong, there are the causal or nuisance but you do need tomorrow so we know that one of the other mechanisms we know that iOS is important for triggering the stem cells that help regenerate our bodies and help us make new immune cells as well just to cure

staff our we talked about this, that’s what hormesis is. When you stress the body, you sauna, you turn on Heat Shock Protein, yes. When you fast you do stem cell regeneration. This is the how the body adapts. problem is when you have continual so you have to have a break and you have to recover.

Yes. And what James is referencing in case you’re wondering when he says ROI, it’s reactive oxygen species, reactive oxygen species.

Yeah, you know what I listened to Rhonda Patrick, you know, she’s a hopefully a, this is the this is the kind of stuff I love to this is what she does. She talks about biochemistry all the time.

Let’s in case my academic friends are sort of tuned in at some point in this thing, like James hasn’t said this, this and this kind of thing. There are some wavelengths which affect film membrane permeability and ability to exchange counter minds. And there are, there are some mechanisms we don’t yet understand. People want to talk about other light accepting molecules, like opsins, which are more likely to absorb blue wavelengths of light. And so I just want to acknowledge that there are other other mechanisms involved. And this whole stem cell triggering is not fully understood yet, right? There may be another mechanism in there for that.

So you just explained in great detail in a fantastic quick way that could end up being a whole course on itself. What? Yeah, what’s going on on cellular level? Now let’s get back to the original thing that we started to talk about, which is depth, penetration and disease and I’m going to say a disease state. So for instance, one of the things somebody just messaged me on was, if you have arthritis, let’s say in a joint like a risk, how many treatments How do you Playing get into the science of that particular thing. So I’ve got, I’m a massage therapist and my wrist is messed up and it’s affecting my career. I mean gastroenterologist, and I’ve got Tina synovitis. And that one joint. Yeah, and that is the most common disability that people in my field will have.

Well, first of all, the most exciting thing I’ve seen in this field, it’s been demonstrated in animals in the last one clinical trial. So there’s 15, at least randomized control clinical trials and osteoarthritis, one of them has shown by doing blood tests, and by doing MRIs, they’re increasing the joint space and the blood test revealed that these patients are making more cartilage which is remarkable so we’re getting an anti inflammatory effect and a regenerative effects and making Catholics here as shown in one particular study that I find interesting and but also inflammation in some tendinopathy is as well is is going down so I think that’s the other point you’re talking to. This treatment will go comfortably you can treat one to maybe just about to get like two three centimeters have a sufficient dose if you treat long enough. Yes, for anybody’s listening you can get a little have a few photons to form five centimeters. That’s something but it does seem to work really how does it work so well on the brain or any other deep target is because probably to do with this blood flow and this is another mechanisms we are releasing nitric oxide from other molecules improving blood flow and I think this explains a lot of the benefits which are outside of the penetration range of the light there are these indirect effects

it makes sense so if you’re going to increase blood flow you’re gonna allow cells to produce their own energy you’re going to increase healing because that’s exactly what your what your damaged tissue is going to go into games more blood flow.

Yeah, so there’s a whole lot more going on than just depth and penetration cuz that was the thing I was wondering when you’re talking that then we’re talking about the brain how in the world are we helping depression and PTSD and

yes, I think it’s, there’s a major component of bloodline.

I’m apparently too far away from I got too comfortable. Now. Right.

Now I’m putting you to sleep.

fascinated, that’s the issue. I just want to I want to that’s what we call FC. Fire chat mode we don’t really

know okay

actually liking that that position because your articles are showing but classic

I will a couple of other avenues that I found personally interesting were course can being a gastroenterologist, y’all had some reason to add on the micro biome touch on that. And the thing that I found for me being a seizure provider, you’ve made reference to analgesic properties that you’ve utilized with that and you even did your own tooth extraction.

Well, I didn’t pull it through that but I did do my own did my own anesthesia filled with with laser light. I’m hoping I actually pulled this to an easy to find position on my screen. I thought I got that one ready, but I left it on the other screen. That’s okay. I can get

to that. We have people sending us in the articles. Thanks very much. Well, yeah, I’m being emailed the actual articles that we’re bringing that we’re bringing up so that’s awesome.

So here we go. So I can get this thing lined up to the best position. This is my right so I’ve had a root canal some years ago which eventually failed there was a fracture in the route and then becomes infected so you have to have the tooth taken out and I wanted to see how good the pain relief could be with this. So I treated my mouth that’s so the demonstration first of all this is my tooth extraction it was yours is my face, it’s my face.

And they’ve already looked at the tooth so that means they get these pliers and they are and they’re going to be with bit now Okay, pull it out. Okay, that’s the bit with the last day to it’s already been loosened off and they’re going to do the pull on the on the tooth. So if you’d like dentists and blood to look away, so grab the these forceps and then pull the tooth. So under laser anesthesia,

laser anesthesia again that please

right so what we do here

is a treat around the mandible. So Here is the outside of the mandible and these I put the product on the TV but the screen is got some active drawn a black line to represent the buckle nerve that runs down the outside of your gums was inside your gums but outside of the mandible I treated three points along there for three minutes each which is quite a long time in our field so that’s now it’s been nine minutes on that side and nine minutes on the inside you see yourself yes and so actually I well I practice on myself when I went to their had the dentist actually do it for me. a dentist Australia

and you’re in your

annex mad dentists.

So basically you went to international dentist.

Yes, exactly can I had the implant done as well? With MCC in the post? Yes. So then you let the mandible heal you did the soft tissues heal the back a few months later. And again, cut the soft tissues and no local no local drill hole in screw in the metal as so it all up without feeling anything and for those who are reading you can see that actually it last

insane. Are you serious?

Yeah, I’m serious. And it’s fantastic.

This is nuts. It is nuts.

But it’s awesome.

Yeah, it was like it takes longer than ananas a regular anesthetic though, because you’re spending 20 minutes treating with a laser now maybe it’ll work in less time. Maybe there’s a quick way but I wasn’t taking me

to this is this is not to revolutionize the dentistry industry. This is just shows on yourself. You’re willing to put your money where your mouth is literally literally.

And you did that?

Yeah. Incredible. It is. I got a quick question about that. So if I remember the conversation correctly, whenever you were describing this, you were able to maintain motor movement, correct? Yes. And so by doing stolen motor function it that interests me in the aspect of So would you say that the laser is more susceptible to work on a ferret nerves than effect nerves, maybe because of myelination? Maybe, maybe effect those are the basically a fan nursery listening are those that carry paint sensory and whatnot back to the spinal cord and the nerves is how you’re feeling central nervous system tells your muscles to move. So, the same thing happens whenever we do a neuromuscular blockade or I do a local yeah I’ll be able to stop the innervation of the sensory and then but I know if I lose movement that I’ve covered everything yeah, so is it kind of the

yeah I’ve so usually we don’t see any effect on motor function but I know people who treat small animals and because they’re smaller and if we use the same dose as we do on a human that the maybe a cat because can’t really have problem moving it’s like sometimes after, you know running for a matter of seconds, not minute after after energy analgesic treatment of the spine, so we can overdo it on cats and small dogs.

This is this makes total sense. I would love to borrow one I’ve had Eric drive me to the piercing shop several times where I was going to get a belly button ring but I chickened out each time now I

die right now we have a laser you have no more

time the laser have no excuses.

Only proved anesthesia in the mouth. I

probably shouldn’t do it

out again.

I have another excuse.

We all believe it or not, we’re about to wrap up two hours. We only have just under two minutes left to go. Every single thing that we’ve referenced on here we’re going to have quick links. bleed this next week for all of our listeners will have the new podcast format up all the show notes will have the links back to everything that James is talked about your next swim through we come through Dallas and hanging out with

Zeke. Absolutely. Yeah, it’s been fun.

It’s incredible information. But I mean, if you were to find somebody local that does store laser again, just to to make them aware. They could go to door laser.com the

laser calm for the laser medical side of things. And then the whole body treatment system is what athletes are using. And that’s where thing as well, nobody thought,

man so my mission, heal the gut, protect the brain, get people to sleep, and we’re going to be a healthier society. Protect the brain is so important. What’s the point of doing everything that you’re doing if you’re depressed or if you’re in pain, or if you get the or Alzheimer’s, I think all of it leads to inflammation. And what you’re talking about is a decrease in cellular inflammation. This is fascinating.

It is fascinating Do y’all have you want to go into depth on the deal have high endurance athletes that you currently treat that you keep up with to see how they’ve been able to recover from sports injuries

not falling on a day to day basis, but the Nike team are all mandated the middle of long distance runs at night, you’re all mandated to use a light bed at least three times a week.

And that is well fascinating stuff. Check us out a gut check project. com You can also find it get your project copy directly to the store and find your own KB MD CBD as well as your own personal otra until at love my tummy calm forward slash spoonie Don’t forget to check the show notes of this particular podcast next week. We’ll have everything from Mr. James Carroll all the way from the UK to come and talk to us about the Thor laser.

We can bring these people in from the UK if you’re not using the spoonie code. So get on the love mattamy calm forward slash

spoonie Right. Thank you so much for joining us today. Awesome. It’s been fun. Yeah, really appreciate it. Love it. Y’all take care and we’ll see y’all next week.