#31 Fecal Transplant Bacteria Science: Poo & Prep Matter

Alright everybody is now time for the gut check project. It’s Episode 31, we got a special topic here today that Dr. Brown is going to cover. Has anybody ever thought about fecal microbial transplants almost screwed up the way I said it, just then.

No, no, no, you can’t screw up poop.

You can’t screw up poop.

You can’t screw up poop.

No, so I didn’t. It’s like. It’s like everything’s fine.

Yeah, I want to try something completely different here. So what, what happened and the reason why I’m to do this show, you and I is that I were surprisingly getting some reach. I got reached by somebody, instant messaged me from Sweden.

Someone from Sweden, Sweden.

Because they actually had GI issues developed bacterial overgrowth, SIBO. And then, in her desperation, she did a fecal transplant. In other words, she took somebody else’s poop and put it in her body. So if this sounds weird, it’s not that weird. It’s something that’s like gaining a ton of traction. And then she reached out to me because she ended up feeling way worse and developed several autoimmune issues. And that’s what I want to get into the fact that FMT, Fecal Microbial Transplant is not a totally benign thing. And if, Are you open to maybe having me interview her?

I think it’d be fantastic if you interviewed her. There’s nothing like real world conversation with people who have real world elements with real world answers.

That’s so awesome. Because one little thing that I want to discuss is a recent article was sent to me in the Journal of Psychology

Okay?

Where openness to experience is linked to several things. So I would like everybody listening. The gut check project is about checking your ego at the door and being open to different things. So one of the things that I’m really proud of is that every time we do this show, people reach out to us we get a lot of email, we get a lot of people talking to us, and then I have to address it. Well, this particular show where I interview Helly, I want to make sure that if you have IBS, if you have SIBO, bacterial overgrowth, if you suffer from anything. Watch this because what I’m going to do is put a face to the disease. And she was so kind to reach out to me and say, film me, and I want everyone else in the world to know. So the Swedish person, who was very open about everything. She has exactly what I do in clinic, every single day. So what you’re going to watch is what I do with her. It was a two hour interview. I cut it down to 15 minutes

Right?

So if you know anybody, please refer them. If you actually wants to sit there a little little bit more, we have our friend, Shivan Sarna.

Shivan Sarna, with SIBO SOS Summit. SIBO SOS Summit, yeah, absolutely.

SIBO SOS Summit. She’s interviewed all the experts. I actually directed Helly over there, but more importantly, be open. So if you’re like, if you’re about ready to go ah, no, I’m not into it. What I’m going to tell you is, a recent study came out in Psychology Today, that talks about openness.

All right.

And the fact that you said open, makes me super excited.

I hope I’m as excited when this is all over.

I love how we show up. I hold papers and you’re like, where are you going with this?

Sometimes you give me papers I don’t even know they’re there.

Alright, put simply.

Okay.

Openness is the drive to explore novel aspects of human experience. Okay? Now, here’s what’s fascinating. This article did this whole interview where they looked, and 95% of Americans feel that they are more open to new experiences than other Americans.

Well, Wow, that’s amazing.There’s only that 5% that everyone’s competing with.

I know. So it’s funny, because as we sit there and look at this, we realize that 95% of these Americans responded that they’re more open than everybody else. But, as it turns out, when they actually went through the rest of the questionnaires, they’re not.

Okay.

As we age, we become very entrenched in our own habits.

Familiarity, I’m sure is probably already 100%. It’s gotta be.

I love the fact that I threw a curveball at you here on the show. And I’m like, you look I’m gonna we’re gonna do a zoom with a person in Sweden. So that’s pretty much our gas this time.

Sweet.

So, anybody who is open to experiences, they have shown that the people that are more open to new experiences tend to be financially better, tend to have better relationships, and they tend to be happier.

Okay.

So as much as you sit there and say, oh, well, I have my routines, being open and jumping off bridges and that, I don’t mean that literally.

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. The figurative.

Figuratively because you and I jump off a lot of bridges, figuratively. But doing that more, actually results in a more prosperous life.

Doesn’t that make sense though, because whenever something’s new, it expands your mind. You have a new experience, and doing the same thing over and over again. Look what happens with people who have quote unquote, “stale relationships.” They say we did the same thing. And if that happens, then you people always use the term spice things up. Where does spice come from? Spice comes from, from change, right? So embrace the change and take, take what’s coming at you.

Embrace the change. So what we’re going to talk about today is a couple simple techniques. So this study, and then we’re going to get into the interview. Okay? And then I’m going to, I mean, I wish I had some way to geek out like some signs. It’s like, Okay, I’m going to geek out now because the article I’m going to get into..

Yeah, geek out, like now we’re gonna geek out. So I mean, I find myself I had a patient in that was a PhD, and I was sitting there, tell her about some stuff, and we started talking and next thing I know, it’s like 30 minutes and we’re way beyond the actual issues that she came in to see but I’m like, I’m like eating her brain about what she knows and, and she’s like, Oh my gosh, hey, if you do this, and this and this and this and this. Like the inner connection of what we can do when we start pulling our mind power together, is really amazing. Yes, it’s kind of what this is about. This is being open to new and novel things..

Maybe Paul can put a little sciences geek out.

Alright

So I’m going to tell you how to be open.

Okay

So rather than argue whether it’s good or bad.. so the number one nudge the edge of your comfort zone, ..

Okay

So it has been shown in human studies that the more that you push things, as we grow older, we tend to confine ourselves more and more and more and more.

Yeah

As kids, they will push themselves. And you know, they’ll just try anything.

There’s no established boundary.

There’s no established boundary. As adults, we tend to say this is my boundary, so I should not do that. I am not going to dance, because that’s not who I am. I am not going to be silly. I that’s I guess that’s why I love comedians. They just get up there and just throw down.

Sure yeah, I love my grandpa or my granddad, used to have funny little sayings. And one of the things he always said is “you otta throw it against the wall, see if it sticks.”

I love it.

You know, you turn, turn the key and see if it starts anything like that you he’s basically just using metaphors for trying things out.

We have one shot at life and we tend to limit ourselves because of the fear of the unknown.

I would agree with that.

Quit doing that. Nudge your boundary, push your confidence to levels. And guess what? It’s okay to fail.

It is okay to fail.

That’s the thing. Number two, the number two way to actually become more accepting in that to openness is prototype over perfection.

Prototype over perfection. Kind of interpretation of that would be it doesn’t have to be perfect to be used. Doesn’t have to be perfect to be tested. Right?

That’s funny how you interpreted it that way. Because the way that I read it was Eric Rhaegar. And Ken Brown, we are prototypes over perfection.

Quick, get some microphones and a camera. And let’s see what happens.

Now, so Thomas Edison made 1000 unsuccessful attempts at making a light bulb.

Yeah.

And he actually was asked, how did it feel to fail 1000 times. Edison’s response was, I didn’t fail 1000 times the light bulb was an invention with 1000 steps.

Absolutely.

So whatever it is that you’re doing, whatever it is that you’re trying to do, you’re not failing.

No.

It just becomes a step in the process. Be open to more things. Hundred percent.

Yeah, I couldn’t agree with that more.

And when you realize that people like Edison failed 1000 times. Step up. Yeah, no more excuses. And then this is my favorite, right? The number three way to be more open. Follow your curiosities, not your passions. So you have two boys Gage and Mac.

Correct?

And you know we always sit there and tell people follow your passion, follow your passion. But the reality is, a passion is a very weird and personal thing.

Yeah.

And curiosities. Are, can be stimulated in many different ways..

I agree with that.

Curiosities can be built from different angles. They can be built from experiences they can be built from whatever follow the curiosity the curiosity will lead to a passion.

I’m gonna brag on my oldest here right quick, because he does play competitive basketball and they both do Gage and Mac both play competitive basketball and Mac hasn’t had this opportunity. So this story is really just about Gage but he has or had some opportunities after he graduates high school this year to go and possibly explore playing basketball in a smaller school setting, etc. But as much as he enjoys playing basketball, he, he doesn’t think that’s what he wants to define him. He wants to keep his passion as his hobby, and be inspired by being a traditional college student being able to discover because he’s afraid that for him, not for everyone, but being a collegiate athlete would basically wall him off from his ability for exploration. I mean, that’s almost verbatim how he described it. He wants to be able to be a young man to still explore beyond the boundaries of a basketball and I think that’s completely awesome would have been a lot cheaper, on everybody play basketball but that’s that’s not we all live once and that’s not what was going to make him happy.

Is that fascinating? Because I know that I mean, we’ve talked a lot about Gage, Gage explores his curiosity..

Sure.

He plays music he artist does artists, he does video editing, he does different things. My kids do the same thing where I just didn’t cure. I want to encourage the whole curiosity aspect of it. And I didn’t even realize that that is what makes you open.

Sure.

When you’re curious, you’re open when you’re open, you accept other ideas. When you accept other ideas, you accept other people, you can see that there’s a whole path here. You eventually by being open, you have empathy.

Oh yeah.

You end up saying, I get where you’re coming from. I could see what this is. You don’t wall yourself off.

Yeah, absolutely. Now I’ll brag on my younger one Mac Mac is often times with his large massive collection of friends, which spans about eight years in each direction. He, he often times refers to them from their station in life if they’ve had like a struggle or big win I’ve heard him say, they must be feeling this because this looks like that this would have felt good or bad and then kind of gives their you know, their environment perspective. So yes, I agree with that that the curiosity would would breed empathy like that. That’s really cool.

So this particular doctor when they wrote this article, they said while passion is fickle, and high voltage curiosity, on the other hand is deep and abiding. When you approach something with a curious mindset, you’re seeking growth and newness, for the sake of novelty. So stay curious, my friends.

Yeah. And it sounds like somebody else who said that.

Yeah. Somebody else I’m sure we can reference it because

Not supposed to.

So I just, I think it’s interesting that and in this particular show, we’re going to do something unique or we’re going to put in a video of me interviewing a patient, but being open to new ideas being curious.

Sure.

That is the kind of stuff,so as a physician, when I’m curious, I went down some rabbit holes on this particular topic event.

I bet.

And I loved it. I love it. I’m a I’m a better doctor. This shows makes me a better doctor, this show is going on Shivan’s webcast makes me a better doctor, I have to prepare for it. I have to do different things. I mean, we all have to sit there and realize, okay, I am going to be curious about this topic. I’m going to learn it, I’m going to do it. And then all of a sudden it opens up a new door and you’re like, we haven’t thought about that.

No.

That’s what this shows about. So if you ever heard about Fecal Microbial Transplant, meaning poop transplant, that’s what this is about, and there’s a lot of hype around it. If you haven’t heard it. I listened to multiple podcasts on this. Dave Asprey had an expert on I mean, like all people that I like to listen to.

Sure Ben Greenfield.

Ben Greenfield did this. Everybody did this? I’m going to sort of rock the whole ship here. Okay, today, I know. Let’s be open everything. Let’s be open. The fact that if you’re open, you’re going to be open to ideas. You’re going to be open to different perspectives. But the reality is it’s gut check project, check your ego at the door. What we’re going to talk about is SIBO bacterial overgrowth, IBS, and if you want to watch somebody spilled their guts and really be genuine and be open. I have an interview here that we’re going to play in the next few minutes. With Helly from Sweden, nice and she was open and cool. And you’re not alone. If you have any digestive issues, you’re not alone, and that’s the bottom line. So she the story is this. She got sick then she was not right. Then in her desperation, meaning like she had the typical SIBO stuff. She got a fecal microbial transplant, she went to a doctor, he did a colonoscopy and placed poop from another person into her. And then she got sicker. Oh, that wasn’t what they were after. That’s not what they were after, right? And then she went back to the doctor. He’s like, well, let’s try again. And let’s try again, and then she contacted me because she developed a multitude of autoimmune issues. Interesting. And she is essentially, she feels like she’s dying.

Hmm.

So I would not normally respond to a message but she said, Hey, I need your help. I’m like, Look, here’s what we’re going to do. I don’t know if I can help you. But if you’re willing to share your story, we’ll play it and we’ll learn together. So what I want is everyone, every doctor, every patient to listen to this and say we’re going to find something new to fix people. That’s what that’s what this is about. So let’s go ahead and turn it over. This is my interview with Helly from Sweden, who reached out about having complications from a poop transplant, Fecal Microbial Transplant.

All right, tune in.

So tell me a bit about yourself.

Okay, I’m 36 um, I’ve always been healthy until 2015. But after Flagyl everything my health went downhill. I started it gave me horrible panic attacks, I started getting depressed in movement. This is this sounds strange, but I could actually feel it in my stomach. It was like a nervous kind of feeling. You know, when you have butterflies in your stomach, but it wasn’t like a good feeling. You’re like you don’t have an appetite. It was just like that. Yes, brain fog and the worst thing I had ever felt in my life was something called the realization. You know, when I had nausea all the time all the time. For two years I had not imagined you have a stomach flu that goes on every single day, every waking hour for two days, for two years, that’s what I had. And I lost my new job that I had gotten a week before I got Flagyl so I couldn’t stay so I it for three years this brain fog and, and my my, because my also my bowel movements. I mean, I had never always gone to the bathroom every day. I got maybe once every two days or something. But after Flagyl my my stool wasn’t the same horrible horrible fatigue. I the brain fog I couldn’t focus I couldn’t I was always panic this this panic was the worst. I wouldn’t I mean, if you have panic attacks.

So essentially 2015 you get the antibiotics. You start with this down this path you are you eat specially carby foods, you get very bloated. And then you ended up having quite a few beginning with neurologic issues where you had the brain fog, panic attacks and depression some sleep disturbance out of frustration. You had, insomnia, you you went to several different doctors One of them was an advocate for FMT, known as Fecal Microbial Transplantation. And you got ultimately over over a course three different fecal transplants. First one being with a colonoscopy. Second one being with an enema and then an enema again. Okay, so both, and after each one, you had a reaction to it where you had what you felt like the flu and you had lymph nodes that got big. And then since then, you’ve had very significant skin and scalp issues with Alopecia meaning your hair’s falling out. You’ve had biopsies which are permanent. And now the really unusual one is the hypermobility and the feeling like your joints are getting slightly bigger. And, that is something that seems to be progressing with you right now. Is that correct?

Yes. Okay. Yeah, it’s in jaws, back. It just pops and pops everywhere.

Okay.That is quite the history there Helly. And I’m very sorry, you’re going through all of that. Let’s try and make a little bit of sense. I don’t know if I can help you. But I do at least want to try and explain a few things just so that you’re, you’re very intelligent. A ton of reading, I’m going to share my screen real quick. So one thing that we do realize when we talk about, this is a moving target as you can see, and so you have a history which is very consistent for somebody to develop bacterial overgrowth. We know that SIBO can happen if you go through a stressful event. If you take care antibiotics are having an infection. And you kind of had all three happen at a similar time. We know that that can affect the motility and all comes down to motility. So you’ve already learned the basics of bacterial overgrowth, a SIBO and you understand that it’s a can be population of bacteria growing where it shouldn’t. So when you eat the bacteria break it down. These are just some recent studies that we’ve been looking at that kind of show how these different gases can affect things. So this is the effects and mention of how methane affects ileo-motor function. And if you listen to Dr. Pimentel talk, what he discovered in his lab, is that what the methane does, it doesn’t just shut it down. It actually makes your intestines do an uncoordinated contraction. So it’s like it just sort of spasms. And when it does that it doesn’t move anything, thus allowing bacteria to continue to grow. Now we know that you drew out both hydrogen and methane. And we do know that when you have hydrogen, if it can actually bind and produce hydrogen..

..But more hydrogen. Yes.

More hydrogen. So what what I see in my practice is that it is the multi biome. It’s how these different organisms interact with each other, including fungal organisms producing possibly CO2 or the or the methane back background. Now hydrogen sulfide is a big deal, because what we do know is it’s it can actually, the cysteine residue that normally reproduce on our diet gets absorbed and gets converted, but when you have bacterial overgrowth, it produces hydrogen sulfide, which leads to inflammation. Ultimately, inflammation is the root cause of all of this. And so what I think we’re seeing in you, yes, that you have root causes the inflammatory process. You’re exactly right, that when you had your your Genova stool test, that when you had the fat in there, you are mal-absorbing fat now are you mal-absorbing fat due to bacterial overgrowth, it could also be pancreas and we do see this overlap with that. But it is completely linked all these different things that a lot of times other doctors say well, you just have chronic pain, Fibromyalgia fatigue, migraines, but your initial presentation was all about the brain. The thing that I think you’ll find it interesting is that once we know that we set this inflammatory cascade off, I want to show you this arrow right here. Yes, new data has shown that when a mass cell gets stimulated, it’ll release histamine and serotonin proteases. But the histamine itself will actually stimulate the enteric nervous system, which will go straight to the CNS. So when you mentioned earlier, I do know that there is a gut brain connection vaguely? Well, it’s mediated through the entire nervous system and it is very, very, very sensitive. So have intestinal inflammation, there is your gut brain connection. So if you look at this, the new evidence is now showing that this gut brain connection is in all different kinds of Dementia, Autism, Anxiety, ADHD, you know, the newest term it’s really fascinating is leaky brain, because what they’ve done is that they’ve actually shown that you can soak colonic tissue in inflammatory mediators. And then they soaked blood, the blood brain barrier, and they show that both of them become permeable. So know that there is no doubt about it. It’s not in your head, that whole depersonalization, that anxiety that depression can all be related to leaky brain. I do I am getting into quite a bit of research and cannabidiol or CBD. And there is there are some in vitro studies where they actually looked at how they can improve the blood brain barrier, which ultimately helps with all that so my fear is that these kind of things will continue. Like like you’re already worried, continue to progress to lead to more autoimmune issues to lead to more things like that. So the whole FMT thing is really fascinating to me, because we got very excited about it. And then the FDA came in, and then and then they basically pulled the plug. And then we said, no, it’s very effective in clostridium difficle infections.

Yes, I know that.

Yeah. And so that’s what it’s really only allowed for here, though, the whole concept of just saying we’ll just take somebody’s super donor a poop. Getting back to the how we prepare it, you may have a super donor right here, meaning you have a diverse microbiome. But once we process it, you may decrease the viability of that even if you do DNA analysis, you don’t know if that bacteria is viable. So what I’m getting at is I think it would be very interesting to, in somebody like you, let’s say that we advanced the science of this we can go oh okay, Helly, I think that unfortunately, we this particular donor did not have enough of butyrate producers bacteria. How do we get more of that in that? I am a big fan of spore based biotics. megaspore biotic.

Megaspore?

Yeah, so if you want..

That’s a probiotic, how can I take that?

So I want you to go to our show, I actually we actually interviewed their their CEO, PhD, …, and beautiful how he explains the science of probiotics. And it’s incredible how he explains how the spore based biotics send signaling to other bacteria. So one of the things that they can do and the reason why we’re teaming up is because we realized that the polyphenols and Atrantil can actually help feed the spore base bacteria. And what it does is it goes through and doesn’t become out of its spore phase until it gets to the illeum at which point signaling goes it goes, Oh, we’re gonna end up in the colon. Then it gets to the colon wakes up and starts tapping other bacteria and goes hey guys, we need to diversify a little bit. And they’ve actually shown that they can deliver vaccines this way and stuff. So the whole concept of spore based biotics is, is really fascinating and new barnwood spore based but so..

But can I just ask you Atrantil I have there sir, I know that three ingredients. One is from peppermint, which is fine. I just don’t know all that much from about this bark tree thingy.. is it?

Well, you know that all really good questions all extremely complex. So, the bark you’re talking about is Quebracho, Quebracho Colorado. That’s the thing that makes us so unique is because we actually are the only product that has this. Quebracho Colorado is a proanthocyanidin or a tannin. So it’s the tannins are proanthocyanidins combined into a large molecule. So the thing that we needed to help with SIBO is that we needed Atrantil to be a poorly absorbed molecule. So when we were talking about scientists, then we looked at all the animal data that had been done. And so what we do know is that in animal models, sheep and cattle that are fed this tend to have a much healthier microbiome, they tend to produce better milk, they tend to have increased weight gain and things like that. So from an animal perspective, we’ve been feeding cattle for a long time. from a human perspective, you’re getting it in a lot of different sources that you didn’t really realize, for instance, wine. Things like that, you’re getting a lot of this. polyphenols, yeah, but polyphenols is a huge umbrella. Before every time somebody does some research on it, it appears that they are beneficial in ways that can that can become very complex. So this is that whole post biotic conversation that when you take a polythenol and or an undigested polysaccharide that gets to the colon, bacteria can break them down into different things. There are different molecules so that bacteria can break something down, and then produce a molecule called eurolithin. Eurolithin signals old and sick mitochondria to die. So that is my topic. So this is this is the kind of complex signaling that’s going on.

So when they die, those new mitochondria that does the body produce more or?..

Yes, so it’s like autophagy. Autophagy…

Yes

It’s mytophagy. It’s just the signaling to say, hey, you’re an old and functioning powerhouse. And we need a new one over here. So okay, so then the big argument if you talk to in vitro scientists or bench researchers that look what they know is that these polyphenols like reservatrol, like berberine, like, all these molecules are similar like quercetin like tumeric all these. They’ll say, Oh, well, one of the problems that Is that it actually creates a little bit of stress on cells. And so that’s that antioxidant thing that you’re talking about, which is too many antioxidants, then we don’t know what it does. in vivo, I think what’s happening is is that that is a version of hormesis. Actually, I think there’s a term for it. It’s called xeno- hormesis, meaning you’re outside of hormesis is the adaption to a stress. So the reason why you work out and the reason why exercise is functional is because that’s, that’s a hormetic response. The reason why Oh, you’re in Sweden, you guys are loving saunas, right? You guys are a big sauna society?

It’s more Finland. But yea.

I’m a huge sauna fan, because that’s a great example of turning on, heat shock proteins. And so what that does is you stress your body a little bit to make it adapt more. So you get this bigger, this bigger response. I think that the whole emerging role in the US were we’re really limited by the research that we do is usually funded by pharmaceutical companies.

Yes.

Here that’s what that’s really what I’m trying to do is try and bridge this gap and say, okay, how do we look at some of this consistent research that’s been done in the lab done in animals, some small studies in humans and say, can we translate this to benefit somebody like you? So I want I what I will tell you all I will do is I’ll try and dive more into the FMT thing ask around if they’ve had some different challenges like this. And in the meantime, I hope that this helps you discuss a little bit more with your doctor and..

I will..

You know Helly, I think we should probably wrap this up. But..

Yes. So what’s the next step? You will you will get in touch with me when you’ve found someone and then we can set up a meeting for, for them for the new thing for the new recording. The show or what..

Yea, we need to heal you and bring you back on so that we can heal? .. Next step is for you to tell everybody to watch the gut check project so that maybe one FMT expert will see it and go, okay, I’m willing to talk and then we can pick their brain.

Okay.Perfect. Thank you so much. So. So..

Hang in there. I hope that this..

I will.

I hope the zoom at least helps you to relax a little bit. And we know that people are still trying. There’s a lot of scientists out there working on a lot of these things. The joint thing, I’m a complete loss. I’ve always thought of the EDS as a genetic thing. But then again, we have this whole epi genetic field where yes, you carry a gene, and then something happens that turns it on that’s another process. So.

Yeah, yeah. So it will be interesting to see if I have that gene. I’m going to ask for investigation in that too, because if I don’t have it, then it really really is proof that it it’s something with SIBO or from the gut. Yeah, and I would know.Yeah.

Fascinating. Yeah..

Yeah. Okay. Dr. Brown, thank you so much for your time. And..

Helly thank you so much for allowing us to share this with our audience. A lot of people realize that you put a face to a problem. A lot of people feel alone when they’re doing..

Yeah, yeah. Yeah they do. Hopefully we can figure this out? Yeah. Okay. Dr. Brown, thank you so much I don’t want to take much more of your time now. Thank you. You too.

Keep in touch okay?

I will. Thank you. Bye.

Alright, so we’re back after the video. Hey, I get to see you at the procedure setting whenever we do the colonoscopies. Is it like that every day in the clinic side because we don’t have those kind of interactions with the patients whenever we have them come through so I mean we just heard about the Hashimoto Ehlers-Danlos and screwed up how to say.

Ehlers-Danlos.

Thank you, but so we hear that that’s what she said.

Alopecia.

Losing hair. Yeah.

I mean, this is a beautiful woman who’s this has disrupted her life. That’s why I wanted it, you know, and thank you to Helly for letting us do.

Thank you Helly very much.

Yeah, you’re right, Pedram.

Yes, it actually adds a face to the disease. This is what I do every day people come in and they’re desperate. And I want to talk about something unique that nobody’s putting this thing together. Let’s do it. And hopefully, people like Shivan Sarna can spread the message about what I think I uncovered. When I was preparing for this, with with Helly and listening to her like, Oh my gosh, wait a minute, I think I know what’s going on. Because the key to Helly is so it was a two hour interview and I cut it down to 15 minutes. So there’s a lot that’s left out. Okay. Much like Shojai Pedram, what’s his name?

Yeah. When when he interviewed me for his Netflix movie, and we did Like 30 minutes of filming, and I got like 30 seconds of airtime.

Well, the goal is not through everything. Not all golden hills.

Pedram Shojai. Yeah. Pedram Shojai. Yeah. So he’s got he does this docu series.

You said right the first time he did it with a with a last name comma first name.

Oh. So yeah, that was a you end up on the editing floor and I remember like to love it said why don’t you just be more interesting and you’ll make it into the actual film..

Love it holding back.

Alright, so anyway, so it was a two hour interview that we that I clipped down so that the thing that people want to hear and if you’re that person, and if you have SIBO or IBS or autoimmune issues, there’s a high likelihood that some of what she talked about is relevant to you.

Correct.

Which the thing that kept resonating to me is the anxiety. So she can deal with most of it, but the anxiety and the depression and the panic, never had in her entire life and just something happened. So that’s what I want to get into post fecal microbial transplant. She ended up having all these issues.

Yeah and your right, having anxiety basically takes away the ability for the coping mechanism to deal with the other present problems. And it’s just a it’s compounding the issue.

Yeah, it’s like insult to injury. Yeah, yeah. So you can have gut issues, but now you’re having brain issues.

And I can’t even reason through it without feeling kind of terrible.

Well, I want to explain all that. And I started looking into this. And then I started doing some Google searches, on FMT, which is fecal microbial transplant. Sure. And one of my partners that I was gonna interview Dr. Ackerman, who’s actually done a bunch of this. We started talking about the consequences of this, and hey, we don’t really understand exactly what’s going on. So if you Google it, it looks Looks like it’s the panacea. People are offering this for autism, Parkinson’s or Alzheimer’s. They’re saying I have the cure to this. But I’ll let you know right now that the FDA is regulating this because there’s been recently two deaths on fecal microbial transplant. And so the FDA is getting involved. So a lot of these different clinics and stuff are doing in outside of the US.

Yeah, Mexico, Mexico, and Central America, Bahamas. Exactly.

So patients always ask me about this. And if I had a way to say I’m about ready to geek out, I’m gonna geek out. So I want to go into a deeper discussion into the science and talk about improving the risk and improve the beneficial effects of fecal microbial transplant. I remember I’ve had so many friends call me up and they’re like, hey, my mom has Dementia. Do you think a microbial transplant ? If you’ve never thought about it, it seems weird. But once you’re desperate, it seems like the easiest thing that you can do.

Sure.

I’m gonna take my poop from this good, healthy person, but in somebody else, and people are discussing how it affects all these other diseases. This is an example of how somebody did it. And it unlocked diseases in her..

Interesting..

The epigenetic phenomena. epigenetics means that you have genes in you. And then when you have an environmental shift, you end up unlocking these genes and they become relevant. It’s super complex. So in my own practice, I’ve actually had twins that had all sort of one had ulcerative colitis, and they gave a fecal microbial transplant from the healthy twin to the the one that had ulcerative colitis, and they did it multiple times. And so the colitis better.

Good. Interesting.

She also took on the traits of the twin. She ended up having acne, she ended up putting on some weight, she ended up doing some different things. Fascinating. Yeah, think about that. I can sit there and put this. So then I started looking into it. And then there’s mouse studies where they have looked, and they have shown that if you take a mouse that has Parkinson’s, and they can genetically modify mice to have that, and then you give a non-Parkinson’s mouse or a non Parkinson’s mouse and you transplant, they end up developing Parkinson’s. And that happened with blood pressure, diabetes, stroke, obesity. traits get transferred in the bacteria, it’s nuts. So we sit there and go, Oh my gosh, that’s like a big deal. So The original studies that have actually been done have looked and humans have shown this, where when they do a microbial transplant, nobody’s writing about this. Everybody’s saying it’s a fantastic thing.

Sure.

There’s this biome.org thing where they’re collecting poop and they’re given to people. What I want to get into is why I’m not saying it’s good or bad. What I’m what I want to discuss is the science of how bad things can happen…which is very unpopular. Like, everybody wants it to work. Everybody wants it.

So do we.. we’d be awesome. But..

So like in Helly’s case, she developed, I really think that she developed Ehlers- Danlos syndrome from it. It’s nuts.

Yeah, that is nuts. And just just as a caveat, this is not to undermine the research the application of FMT whatsoever. It’s just basically just what gut check projects for let’s discuss everything that’s applicable here.

So in a recent review, so FMT, I’m just gonna refer to as FMT, fecal microbial transplant has emerged as it legitimate treatment for the FDA recognizes it for C. diff infection, Clostridium difficile infection, which.. which is real bad. What happens is if you take antibiotics, you can actually wipe out all your other bacteria in one lives, and then they just sort of colonize and create habit. So we do know that it works very well for that. But in a recent review, 2 to 6% of people that have actually done FMT had very serious adverse events. Infection was noted in 2.5%. One of the problems is that the current screening process is very similar to blood. So if I’m going to take your poop put it in me, I’m just going to say do you have had a, b, c, AIDS.. you’re good? Because we’re treating it like blood, but it’s not blood. It’s not blood. We don’t know enough about it. Yeah, so the current process is that this is what we’re actually doing. And then I started looking online, and I found out that there’s all these DIY, I do it yourself. Hmm. websites that tell you how to do it. So they’re not even screaming for that. They’re just saying fine.

Now that I do not know, there’s DIY websites for how to do an FMT on your own.

Dude, I got so deep into the weeds in this thing, the fecal microbial transplant thing everybody wants to say it’ll fix I mean, it’ll fix everything you name a disease, somebody saying that it fixes it. This is what I want to talk about right here. This is why we do this show. The problem is that right now, a super donor, which is what Helly had. So her doctor gave her a super donor, which is a somebody that has no infection that they could find, okay, and they had a broad microbial species is more important than anything else.. What we don’t really take into account is how does that super donors bacteria that that person developed their entire life. And they interact in an epigenotic way, meaning that they actually interact with your body. Why would that be the same as you?

I don’t know. Because, you know, it being a.. because it essentially a micro environment that’s inside, what if you don’t live in the same region of the world that I do? What if you don’t participate in the same activities that I do?If you don’t eat the same foods that I eat? It’s there’s a lot left open to interpretation and understanding, it seems to me.

Totally. And then as it turns out, one thing that we’re not even discussing is the byproducts of bacteria.. So when I say byproducts, I don’t mean that as waste. What I mean is that the bacteria, the bacteria that we have in our bodies, that our micro biome produces certain beneficial thing..

Urolithin and all kinds of cool stuff like that..

Post biotics.

Post biotics.

Well, I I love it because when I gave the lecture at natural grocers, I was talking about post biotics and one of the dietician said, Well, what about short chain fatty acids? And I thought on a local level butyrate, which helps colonocytes? And I said, Well, I, I don’t consider that a post biotic. She’s like, I think you should reconsider, because the reality is that those short chain and then guess what she was 100%. Right.

She was spot on.

Spot on. Yeah. So props to natural grocers to hiring super smart people and teaching me and as it turns out, the short chain fatty acids probably pay a huge role in this whole process. Sure. It’s a byproduct of bacteria. And what happens is when you eat vegetables, or complex polysaccharides, or prebiotics, or polyphenols, they all kind of do the same thing. They basically go to the colon where your bacteria then break them down.. and they produce certain short chain fatty acids, these short chain fatty acids interact to the body in different ways. So it sounds really chemistry, but it’s one is called butyrate, which as it turns out is fantastic for your body sure what it’s called acetate. Oh, acetate, is that the thing that develops when you workout really hard and deplete your ATP? Yes, same thing. So, as it turns out, that crosses the blood brain barrier…. And creates inflammatory process… So these short chain fatty acids, what I’m getting at is I’m going to take somebody else’s poop, put it in you, and we’re hoping that it all works out. This particular article looked really deep into the different short chain fatty acids that are actually produced.. And in Helly’s case, even though she got her transplant from a super donor. I think that one of her issues is that her body’s own micro biome may have interacted and she produced more lactate producing bacteria interesting, which crossed into her brain which caused her panic attacks.

So lactate of course, is something that we measure on somebody who has over activity if somebody has a rhabdomyolysis, and then there’s all kinds of implications of too much lactate, and of course, that’s related to lactic acid. You get that whenever you’re fatigued, so she has bacteria, you can only imagine if they’re over producing that, that that would, of course make her fatigued and more inflammed, right?

Absolutely. Satish Rao, who’s a gastroenterologist all over gusta George’s, the SIBO expert. I think Shivan interviewed him actually Satish. Yeah, yeah. He published a study which showed that if you take a lactate producing bacteria, that those people that take a probiotic with SIBO, they end up with more anxiety and more depression. And it all fits.

Interesting.

So Helly if you if you want to Interview Heloise like the thing that bothered me the most was my anxiety and my panic. She even talked about a deep personalization experience, where every time she she’s like, I don’t get it. I’ve never been like that. I’m telling you that the bacteria produced lactate that cross the blood brain barrier that resulted in brain inflammation that resulted in your anxiety.

The behavioral change.

A behavioral change.

Yeah, just from bacteria. That’s, I mean, it’s, it’s wild, but it’s, it’s probably true.

I mean, micro biome has evolved in the gut together, and it’s very complex. They signal if you watch our show with Kieran, he talks about how the bacteria talk to each other.

Definitely.

So when we sit there and say, oh, we’re going to wipe this one out, or I’m going to give more of this one that may adversely affect the chain downstream.

Well, it’s probably all the more reason why a DIY FMT is a is a poor idea. Your there’s some much more research needs to be done.

You know, the whole FMT thing is, is scary because well, it’s just because we just don’t know what to do know.

We don’t know enough yet.

We don’t know enough. Yeah, Peter Aditya said it past where he was like he goes, we have the ability to test tool. We don’t know what to do with it.

Yeah, he did.

He’s the first person just blunted it down.

But he said it several times. And I agree with him. Yeah.

So the one thing we know is that we do need a high diversity.

Correct?

So the more diverse your microbiome is, the better. So now here’s sort of the cool part. In a healthy individual, the colon is predominantly, gonna get geeky, ready?

Ready.

The colon is predominantly dominated by obligate anaerobes.

Obligate anaerobes, okay.

Do you know what that is?

Lack of oxygen.

Lack of oxygen.

Yeah. They need to exist in order to proliferate with a lack of oxygen. Correct?

Correct.

Okay.

So they need to, they will proliferate in an article oxygen free environment.. names like bacteroides infirmities and these different phylum that we talked about. This allows for a higher production of butyrate, the short chain fatty acid.

Which is beneficial to colonocytes.

Which is beneficial to colonocytes. And as it turns out, it’s beneficial to all intestinal tract stuff.

Colonocytes just is a fancy way of saying colon cells. So just so you know.

You’re so nerdy. Yes, you’re right. A lot of sites are colon cells. Alright, so our friend Dr. Pimentel, he’s actually described how when he’s been treating people with SIBO, bacterial overgrowth, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth that he has shown that there are blooms..

Oh okay.

Of facultative anaerobes and he uses the terms blooms.

Facultative anaerobe.

What he means is somehow the SIBO people end up with more facultative anaerobes in the colon. So, SIBO is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, bacteria growing where it shouldn’t. And then when we try and look at them, he’s got the technology at Cedar Sinai, just show that they’re colonic bacteria. They have an overabundance of facultative anaerobes. Meaning.. what? What does that mean?

I don’t know. Because when you use obligate anaerobes, it’s almost like an interchangeable before I didn’t really I’m not really used to the adverb, oblogate and facultative so kind of explore that. This is new to me.

Yeah, it’s awesome. So basically, it’s a badass bacteria that can swing both ways. Oh, if you give it oxygen, it will.

Different result?

It will say I can deal with oxygen. I prefer anaerobe.

Wow.

So if you take the oxygen out, I will do better but in Oxygen environment, I’m going to proliferate more, but meaning you have this balloon. So Pimentel describes it as a bloom, meaning we’re producing too many facultative anaerobe..

Interesting

Oh it’s super wild.

So just as an analogy, what we’re saying here is there are some freshwater fish and there are saltwater fish, but you also have those fish that can basically change the way that they handle their respiration and their, their salt water content. And they can exist in both brackish they can exist in brackish water and go back and forth between fresh and salt. So this is kind of like what a facultative..

You know what, thank you for making that analogy, because I wasn’t thinking like that at all. But yeah, you’re exactly right.

The transitional bacteria.

Yeah, it’s a transitional bacteria that will adapt to the environment.

Interesting.

This is really interesting. So what he has said is that when you have these blooms of facultative anaerobes these bacteria will prefer an anaerobic environment, but they will switch to oxygen and grow quickly. This may be the root cause of dysbiosis. So this could be the reason why I see the SIBO people. Yeah. And they’re bloating, it’s better but they’re still constipated, they’re still..

So the problem is just adapting.

So what was it turns out is and we’re going to get into it a little bit. We may be promoting the facultative anaerobes.

Okay.

And this is why it’s a chronic condition. So if you’re somebody that is suffering with SIBO I think that maybe your diet choices could be singularly selecting a facultative anaerobe, which does not produce butyrate.

So when you’re doing current, we need to take things that encourage butyrate production that we’re getting to?

That’s exactly what I’m doing to. So I’m circling around everything where I’m like, we are not producing enough butyrate or body.

So knowing and I don’t want to jump ahead, but just to bring the audience along, knowing kind of that we want that and that that is typically a byproduct of the bacteria that we already have. I would assume the most natural way for us to execute this is to give those bacteria the tools to make butyrate correct? Is that where we’re going?

You’re spot on. You’re a smart Dude, you don’t know about that?

But I think that I want my, my colon bacteria to produce butyrate.

So this is all a lead up to this one particular article, this to my knowledge. This is the first article to address how the actual process of FMT may affect what we’re doing to people…. And when I think back to Helly, I’m like, I think this happened to you. Yeah. So currently, if you take someone’s poop. What they do is for a fecal microbial transplant, you take someone’s poop, you screen it for the typical pathogens. So you’re going to look for AIDS, Hep C, whatever, the same stuff we always do for, for blood and they’re gonna say, look, it’s it’s not there. And then they will label them as a super donor if they have a huge diversity.. so now your proof is actually worth something if you actually want to, I know that you donate a lot of plasma and sperm and everything else that you do to raise money.

It’s, it’s all I could do to get here today.

Yeah, I know, it’s for gas money. But now, if you actually have, if you’re a super poop donor, you can you can label that one on there.

It just sounds like another 30 minutes of my day.

So a super donor, somebody that has actually a broad diversity of, of bacteria. And so in Helly’s case, what she did is that she received a colonoscopy when they were they did there and then she did two enemas afterwards. Okay, so they did a slurry. So I started getting into it. And I started looking at this. And this particular article made total sense to me. I’m like, why would Helly have such horrible issues when they’ve used this stool? So this particular Institute in Sweden uses this super donor all the time, they found what they thought was a super donor. These guys showed the problem is, is that the process is to take someone’s poop. And you mix it with sterile water.. and then you blend it.

Okay?

You blend it…Meaning that the blending process draws oxygen into the compound.

So now you’re facilitating not the action that you wanted. And there’s going to be oxygen dissolved in water.

It’s the first time ever that somebody has thought about this where they said by the blending process by the actual process of what we’re doing for the fecal microbial transplant, we’re automatically promoting facultative anaerobes, not obligate anaerobes.

Wow, interesting. And it’s in I would imagine by proxy, now you’re decreasing the byutrate production of these exact..

100%.

Okay. And that’s exactly what we don’t want, right?

Yeah. So they actually propose that if you’re going to do this, so these, by having the facultative anaerobes means that we’re going to have less butyrate. And we’re going to have more of the lactate. .. the proprynate and these different short chain fatty acids, which by the way, they have shown that they took mice and as I mentioned earlier, where they when they transplanted, but one of the really cool things is that they show that the level of lactate not only affected the brain, but it affected insulin resistance and blood pressure.

Has to if you think about the way the body responds to high exercise and fatigue, yeah, because that’s what we do.

So we’re sitting here giving drugs to people were like, wait a minute… is the real way to health to feed the microbiome so that it produces more butyrate? So what they did is they took a mouse model, they went Holy cow, is there a way to produce more butyrate producing bacteria. So they did a fecal microbial transplant test where they did anaerobic slurries.

Okay

I don’t know how they do that. But they basically kept oxygen out of the blender somehow.

Okay.

And then they stored it with prebiotics.

Interesting, oh, and allowed them to..

And allowed the bacteria..

To build some butyrate.

To build some butyrate.

Nice

And then they transplanted the butyrate concentration in the mice that they did that with went through the roof.

That’s, that’s what we want.

That’s exactly what we want. So then they looked at that and went, well, what What actually produces the most butyrate and I looked at prebiotics. Prebiotic is and an undigested fiber. And then I started looking at different studies. And as it turns out, people have done this research already..

Polyphenols man.

Polyphenols, so as it turns out, polyphenols, same ones, and Atrantil actually get the bacteria to produce more butyrate.

Shout out to Joe, Joe Botel out in Exeter University in the UK who was doing the research on athletes and talking about butyrate just the same. That’s that’s exactly why she said that anthocyanidin polythenols were so, so powerful and helping athletes. So anyway, just to piggyback on that..

Our little superweapon just sent me an article this morning that show that proanthocyanidins are extremely protective against Alzheimer’s disease through the mitigation of rat reactive oxygen species. But I would counter that and say I I think this is all a big venn diagram. I think it’s butyrate ROS or RNS, which is reactive nitrogen species and everything.

That’s so funny because that’s what Joe was talking about was the ROS. side. And now we got your example with Helly, where we’re trying to reduce lactate all the while producing butyrate. Correct?

Correct.

So you’re exactly you’re right. It’s a Venn diagram on why the correct prebiotics to allow the right microbiome to break them down into the beneficial products that your body needs is important. And that’s why having enough polyphenols would be essential.

All right. So let’s tie this back in what’s the point of reading all these articles if you can’t sit there and apply it? So one of the things I said at the early the first part of the show is that I love doing this because it forces me to be open.. I just told you why being open is important, right? It forces you to be open to accept new ideas and new Now let’s apply this particular article that talked about FMT and how blending it creates oxygen, which leads to the wrong type of bacteria growing

Correct.

We do this in our SIBO people, we tell them to eat low fodmap. We tell them to do SCD we tell them to elemental. So we’re trying to protect our small bowel.

So we should increase fodmap.

Well, in the reality, we’re starving, the obligate anaerobes that wants to produce butyrate.

Yeah, we’re changing their environment..

We’re changing their environment!

They’re response is to not make buytrate.

This is the aha moment that I had. I went, Oh my gosh, I’m sitting here looking at this we bridged the gap. That’s our job is to bridge the gap. Now I’ve got you know, the low fodmap diet. Yes, it’ll make you feel better. But guess what, maybe that’s why Pimentel goes now we have blooms. This is tying it all together. This is why now it’s a chronic issue. So I’m sitting with my patients going Know what? So when we had Doug Wallen on the show, yeah, Episode 29. him and I talked afterwards and he said when he first started doing a plant based diet to get super bloated, when he powered through it, he’s never felt better. I believe we’re doing something wrong by telling people to restrict their diet. I think we should muscle through it. I think that we should tolerate the bloating. I think that we should take Atrantils, ifaxim, and neomycin whatever you’re going to do carry out that exact thing in the small bowel. But you have to feed your bacteria so that you have the proper bacteria to produce butyrate and decrease the inflammatory response.

That is really interesting. You know, I like analogies. So if you had if you had a dog in the backyard, okay. This is how just kind of picture.

I know you love analogies, but sometimes your analogies I’m just like, what?

Yeah, you got a dog in the backyard right? And you’re supposed to be feeding him.

I’m looking at you right now. I kind of feel like Rick and Morty.

Yeah, as long as your Morty. Here we go hop on the spaceship. Let’s go. Yeah. So, but I just think of it like a dog that’s in the backyard and you’re feeding it and you’re feeding it and feeding and suddenly one day you don’t feed it anymore and you have this nice wooden fence all the way around. That dog doesn’t want to die. That dog is going to chew a hole in that fence and destroy your nice little fence and it’s going to go and find food somewhere else now that that holes the breach that hole is the illness that hole is the overproduction of lactate that’s kind of the..

You’re exactly right.

It’s it the dog is the bacteria wants to eat..

It’s going to survive, one way or the other.

It’s going to make its adjustment because it doesn’t want to die. And so feeding it the correct meals. The prebiotics is probably a much better avenue than just avoiding everything that it was after.

So expanding on your analogy, the way that I would view it is a little bit like this that you have I’m horrible analogies, I would say. Okay, so you have the same fence. You have the same yard.

Yeah, you’re really original.

And you have two seals. And one dog. Okay.

No water.

Yeah. So there’s so there’s, there’s a pool. So that PETA doesn’t come. So there’s pools so the seals are hanging out, and every day you out there, and you throw fish at the seals and the dog, and the dog doesn’t like fish.

Right?

So the dog will chew its way out.

Correct.

The seals are like, Let’s have a party, they get on their cell phones and they call more seals.. And then you end up in a backyard full of seals. And now you have to keep feeding fish. So the analogy is similar, but basically you’re, you’re pre selecting.

Yeah

By doing low fodmap all these other things. You’re not you’re not having a diverse microbiome, the ideal backyard would be a harmonious zoo.

Right? I’m in a menagerie. Yeah.

Much like your own backyard.

That’s right. So many animals.

Would you please explain what a menagerie is? And why..

You could go back to some other episodes and like going back that far, like menagerie is a word for a collection of a bunch of different animals. That’s all you need to know.

Yes. So it’s, it just got me thinking, I’m like, I’m gonna change how I do. I’m gonna change how I treat SIBO, what we need to do is we need to get rid of the bacteria. And then we need to feed the bacteria. How can we do that? Oh, Mind blown. That’s why I think Atrantil has worked over time. So as it turns out, I found a bunch of articles, mouse articles, human articles, movies, other things where I would have people that would come to me and be like, you know, I’ve taken it for like three months and now I’m better I believe that we fixed SIBO and then we fed the bacteria every single day.

That’s I mean, in all honesty, pulling the curtain back, that’s not the way that we’ve been studying the polyphenol effect from the beginning. This is very eye opening, it actually is still, I mean, I can still see how FMT is could probably still be incredibly beneficial, but it has to be delivered and prepared the right way.

Oh, these authors went into a whole different deal where they were trying to figure out how can we improve FMT? And they thought about, like, putting it with antibiotics to decrease certain bacteria, and then what they realized is, you can’t play God..

That’s a mess.

That’s a hot mess.

That’s like chemical warfare.

An that’s how come they said, why don’t we just throw a bunch of prebiotics in there and see what happens.

Let me ask you, so what you described earlier in this example was the slurry so that you know, basically you’re taking a solid and your mixing it up or blending it with a bunch of water? is would you say that after reading that, that possibly the delivery where people were using the frozen capsules? That would be a little bit different because the preparation is different and isn’t requiring the blending activity or are those capsules prepared that way?

They’re to my knowledge are actually all prepared the same way they freeze them. And then they take it.

The the insult is occurring long before the preparation of the delivery. It’s, or i’m sorry, is occurring in the preparation, not the delivery.

Yeah, so Dr. Ackerman, my partner, he’s done a bunch of these. And we talked about the different methods that he is found. So what Helly will describe what she described in her interview was that when they gave her the enema, she pooped it out right away. They created severe cramping and all this other stuff.

Yeah.

So what my partner Dr. Ackerman does is he goes down with what is called an enteriscope and he goes through the mouth..

Wow that’s a long one.

And goes as far as he can go in small bowel. And then they run the fecal slurry, that what he did is he would order super donors, and they would send capsules and then he would melt the capsules and put them in the slurry. And then he would just push it down to the small bowel. Because what you want is to not have that, that urge to poop right away, evacuate. Yeah. So there’s all these different ways of doing it. So the reason why I said that she got the colonoscopy the first time and then enema two other times, I’m not really sure that it’s stuck. It’s so much more complex than we’re actually thinking about.

Yeah, it’s just but it’s wild though. Just thinking that something as simple as the exposure to oxygen doesn’t kill the bacteria. It just changes their orientation on what they’re going to be doing.

So first time ever I’ve thought about that. I’m like, man, we just can’t take somebody’s poop..

And it seems so silly, but it makes the most sense because they’re in an anaerobic environment will naturally we’re trying to help them but alter it, right? And this is filled with almost 21%, or a little more than 21% oxygen, right where we’re sitting right now. So when we do this prep, and we’re not keeping it from that if the bacteria doesn’t die or doesn’t turn dormant, it’s going to make an adjustment. Right? So it makes sense.

It’s, it’s absolutely incredible that these bacteria when you change it when you listen to Helly’s story, and very clearly, it’s all bacterial related. She had an epigenetic phenomenon which turned on certain genes.

Sure.

These bacteria are communicating with your body. Do we live for them? Or do they live for us?

I think we’re vehicles for those little bit of guys.

It’s crazy.

Yeah. So you better take care of them. I mean, they’re gonna be and if you don’t.

I listened to a podcast with Dave Asprey. We had a my microbiologist on from Stanford, and the guy was like, it’s like, Look The thing that we don’t really get, and this is I mean, the guy lives and breathes, colonic bacteria. This is his whole life. He goes, the thing that we’re, it’s dizzying that when you change one volume of a bacteria, they send signals to others. And we’re learning that downstream signaling affects something else. So you think that you want to take one probiotic. No.

They’re going to make adjustments.

They’re going to make adjustments and they do this. So I asked, Dave asked him, he’s like, so what do you do is I dude the key is just eat a healthy diet. I mean, it sounds so stupid, but one of the smartest microbiologist in the world is like, I don’t know what to do. Just eat good.

Yeah, yeah, but I mean, it sounds simple, but it probably makes the most sense.

So here we have the situation where there is If you have the wrong type of bacteria I’ve got so many studies in my head right now that I don’t want to vomit all of it out right now.

Sure.

But there was there was a study which showed that when you have an overgrowth of facultative anaerobes they will actually produce higher levels of ghrelin. Oh, what’s ghrelin?

So you’ve got, ghrelin can wait, I’m sorry, I’ll make sure don’t get this backwards and the drive to eat and then the filled, so your drive to eat will go up.

Your drive to eat will grow up, you’ll never be full.

Right?

They produce frickin ghrelin.

So that’s going to lead to some instances of obesity. And then of course, when you can’t find enough food, you end up making poor food choices. We know that. And then if you end up making poor food choices, and you’re never being satiated, or you don’t have satiety, you continue to consume low density, caloric foods and it’s pretty much what happens with the overproduction and ghrelin, right?

Yeah, absolutely. So what happens is ghrelin, so there’s a hormone called leptin, which tells us that we’re full.. and there’s a hormone called ghrelin, which says that you’re hungry. And now we’re showing that certain bacteria produce it. So you have these people that are like, I’m not .. ghrelin does more than that. It tells you that you’re hungry, but it also lowers your basal metabolic rate and doesn’t feel.

Oh yeah.

So you have all these people that are like, um I’m, I’m eating less, I’m gaining weight, and it all comes down to bacteria. So there’s a whole lot to be said about. Okay, now we need to if I can increase your diversity. So now I’m getting into the science of how do I combine the polyphenols with the proper diet to increase the butyrate maybe this can work its health span is the important thing. But people are on short term basis. So if you’re gaining weight, maybe it’s a bacterial change.

Fantastic information, but it makes sense.

It’s crazy.

Truth is we’re truly going to get into the science of how but if you already buying into the idea that your microbiome is important, this is this is just the precipice. This is the very beginning of why it’s important. It’s way more than just I just need a healthy colon. It’s your entire body.

Oh dude, don’t even get me started here because now I went down a rabbit hole where I found out that these different short chain fatty acids actually affect something called the vagus nerve, which is the grand highway between the gut and the brain for sure. Definitely. I want to find a vegus nerve expert. Let’s bring him on. And let’s talk about that because I think that the vagus nerve being stimulated may be a way to control all of it. It’s the master regulator. Sure, it results in motility issues that results in mood it results in all these things. I’m I thought that I would like end up with a conclusion here and now I have more questions and I started with.

Well, just a side note because I don’t want to have any more questions if this is the first time you ever heard of the word vagus nerd, v a g u s not like Las Vegas, it’s vagus. And if I remember right, that is Latin for wandering, and it’s because it innervates or it touches so many different points all throughout our body is cranial nerve number 10 of the 12 cranial nerves, so vagas nerve, wandering nerve and it handles basically your rest and digest. So it is a lot more than that too.

So for odd fact, a minute from Eric wandering nerve. I didn’t know that.

There you go. That’s why that’s why it’s called vagas. v a g u s It just means that it goes everywhere.

So this is for everybody out there that is struggling with SIBO struggling with if you have digestive issues, heck, if you have mental issues, maybe it has nothing to do with your what we thing which is serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine.

Yeah, that’s right. We think yeah.

We think, maybe it comes down to your bacteria. Maybe you need to feed your bacteria so that we can get everything back in balance. Yeah, it’s, it’s crazy. I’ve been to I mean, every conference I go to nobody’s talking like this. nobody’s talking.

No Heck, I didn’t even heard of..

Dude, because we sit here. Nobody’s doing the research like you have to dig deep to find this one little obscure article where they went, we blended it. And we showed this.

I can’t wait to try out Google to see if anything comes up on facultative anaerobes that’s not something that I’ve ever really been presented with.

I feel like this kind of stuff needs to get out there. I feel like this is why we’re doing this. I feel like this is why we mean I love gut check project because it makes me a better doctor and makes me more open to new ideas.

Definitely.

But this is this particular thing blew my mind. Poor Helly in Sweden, is like many of my patients. She did not She did something a little more extreme, which is the microbial transplant and then she ended up with these different diseases. that’s legit. This is disrupted her life. If you’re catching the tail end of this show go back and watch somebody desperately seeking for help. And I’m going to fix her. Well, I’m not her doctor said multiple times on the on the two hour interview. I’m not her doctor.

We’re gonna work to help other people.

We’re going to work to help other people help her.

That’s right..Well, fascinating, really all the way through fascinating..

Nerdy huh?

Yeah, nerdy but uh, for those that are nerdy KBMD health we do have in development, three research pages that people can turn to one specifically for CBD one soon, specifically for rectal bleeding. And then the last one is going to be just for dedicated research where we will keep a lot of this information. So that pretty much does it while I’m looking at can look at a computer.

Oh because I’m just I’m OCD and because my lactate levels are high in my brain right now. Yeah, I just want to make sure that we’re actually like doing everything filming correctly because there’s something on the computer that’s not normally there and I’m, I’m worried that everything we’re doing is not working.

Well that’s kind of scary. Well, hey, that’s going to do it for Episode 31.

Now, you know what I’m gonna do with that. I’m gonna go feed my obligate anaerobes and increase my butyrate calm down and assume that the computer is doing what it’s supposed to do.

That’s what we’re gonna do.

And not worry.

No, no worries here. Thank y’all very much for Episode 31 on fecal microbial transplant. You got something to add?

I’m gonna do one, one more thing. Okay, so everybody just goes to Amazon, but for real, for real, for real. Go to lovemytummy, lovemytummy.com/

/KBMD.

KBMD. Why? Because it’s a huge discount there. And we need to start showing people that we’re going to come together as a community, we’re going to help each other. So that’s why.

Guaranteed two day delivery from there also. No kidding.

No kidding.

No kidding.

I want to get on there right now.

Yeah for sure. Thank you very much Episode 31 in the books.